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[POLL] Meret revive = Pay2win?

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  • MidbossMidboss
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    DanDK wrote: »
    I think this is extremely obvious P2W.
    By spending X amount of money you literally cannot lose. Sure, it's nice to know that the community might shun these people for groups but that is just some kind of vigilante move that doesn't remove the fact that enough money will literally make you invincible.
    In fact, given enough money, this means that anyone could even solo with 0% risk. At this point, it doesn't even matter anymore what others think.

    And it doesn't just mean that people can spam money for free wins. It also means that being good at the dungeons and learning how to survive no longer determines if you'll win it or not. It only determines that you save a few cents on not having to pay for extra revives. Being good at a dungeon doesn't mean that you can pass it and others can't. It just means that you can pass it for cheaper and other can pass it for some money.

    It's absolutely ridiculous and means you can pay your way to success in a part of the game that a lot of people already consider the only important aspect of progression. To those people, you really want to argue that Dungeons are important enough to skip all the way to 50 to do, just so everyone with a big enough wallet can skip right past everything again?

    Besides making a joke about "...the fact that enough money will literally make you invincible" was a line said in a thread about using money to revive yourself from death, I would like to point out literally any MMO with a player trading system (more so when the MMO has an ability to gift items from the cash shop) will create a form of money = power.

    Compared to the fact that when the game launches without a doubt players will start selling mesos/powerful armor for real money (in the form of merits), the ability to spend some merrits to revive is of little issue. As StrawberryPanic said above, dying is not going to be an issue (or as much of an issue) with a higher gear scores. If you guys care about stopping a p2w system you might want to find a way to block players from trading merits for in game power xD, instead of trying to prevent weak players from giving Nexon extra money. Unless the purpose of this thread is to try and make revive costs in mesos only.
  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
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    edited 4:46PM July 29, 2018
    I am honestly shocked no one has brought up the fact that artists in this game have a pretty unfair advantage over every other player. XD

    #art2win
    LucisSnackCakesGremmiesMidbossBluclueSherriBurnedLineNekoLily
  • mirta000mirta000
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    Midboss wrote: »

    Besides making a joke about "...the fact that enough money will literally make you invincible" was a line said in a thread about using money to revive yourself from death, I would like to point out literally any MMO with a player trading system (more so when the MMO has an ability to gift items from the cash shop) will create a form of money = power.

    Compared to the fact that when the game launches without a doubt players will start selling mesos/powerful armor for real money (in the form of merits), the ability to spend some merrits to revive is of little issue. As StrawberryPanic said above, dying is not going to be an issue (or as much of an issue) with a higher gear scores. If you guys care about stopping a p2w system you might want to find a way to block players from trading merits for in game power xD, instead of trying to prevent weak players from giving Nexon extra money. Unless the purpose of this thread is to try and make revive costs in mesos only.

    Honestly if you're a weak player and got locked out of the dungeon 4 deaths in and told to pay up if you want to continue, why would you pay up instead of outright quitting the game? This is actually the first game that I see where death might mean being totally unable to continue the content, F2P or no F2P.
    SnackCakes
  • HoIyHoIy
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    edited 12:02AM July 30, 2018
    It actually benefits good players as well because in cdev there's a lot of one shot mechanic and every second counts since they had the monsters have so much hp with a 15 min requirement to clear. So when my guild was clearing it we literally only use merit revive in order to make it in time.

    I'm surprise no one is talking about the head start in founder pack yet. That could potentially be the biggest power boost of all time if the game stays the same.

    Imagine the game coming out on monday or tuesday for headstart and wednesday for f2p players. While the server continue to reset on thrusday. Someone could potentially be a week ahead of dungeon gear than you because of the 30 a week cap adding that with premium that gives you x2 dungeon you will never catch up to the people who bought founder packs until you get full legendary
    EvoraSherri
  • TheChaosLegendTheChaosLegend
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    edited 12:04AM July 30, 2018
    I don’t find it a huge concern, but if they keep it I would like to see it only allow you to revive a limited number of times with merets in any given instance. That way nexon can still make money off of those that want it but it still requires competency when clearing dungeons.

    Another alternative is to add a timer to hard dungeons, so they are still challenging. In this cbt the early balrog clears happened with some people spending 500-2k+ merets during the fight, which is ridiculous.
  • mirta000mirta000
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    HoIy wrote: »
    It actually benefits good players as well because in cdev there's a lot of one shot mechanic and every second counts since they had the monsters have so much hp with a 15 min requirement to clear. So when my guild was clearing it we literally only use merit revive in order to make it in time.

    This literally translates to "it is good that we can pay money to revive, because in this dungeon you HAVE to pay money to revive". That sounds like complete P2Progress and P2W to me.
    SnackCakesDanDKSherri
  • SixaxisSixaxis
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    mirta000 wrote: »
    HoIy wrote: »
    It actually benefits good players as well because in cdev there's a lot of one shot mechanic and every second counts since they had the monsters have so much hp with a 15 min requirement to clear. So when my guild was clearing it we literally only use merit revive in order to make it in time.

    This literally translates to "it is good that we can pay money to revive, because in this dungeon you HAVE to pay money to revive". That sounds like complete P2Progress and P2W to me.

    Chaos Dev is clearable within 3 revives by just meeting the Gear/DPS requirements for the party and knowing the mechanics. Even videos up on Youtube so people can skip the "learning the hard way" experience.

    The Balrog dungeon is the most relatable example of this. When people first started going into it, most wiped well over 3 times with both a Knight and a Healer and had to repeatedly use Merets to come back. After learning at what point the summons spawn, how to survive the purple AoE, and etc., it can now be cleared within 3 times without a Priest and if you have a geared Berserker, it can be done without a Knight.

    Of course you're not going to be doing Chaos Dev without a Priest or Knight, but the point still stands that completion of these dungeons is measured by gear and skills, not by how many times you can raise from the dead. This is obviously a P2W mechanic, but it concerns me no more than EXP Boosters do. If people want to spend 20~50 cents everytime they die in order to help the people who can clear it without dying X > 3 times, then so be it. If someone would be so willing as to spend money in order to come back and continue contributing DPS, getting a lower Grade Score and thus a lower chance of valuable loot in the process instead of just sitting out for the rest of the run, then so be it.

    However.. seeing a "Use 20 Merets to resurrect?" after dying is not a good look for the game... So we can meet Nexon halfway by asking that they remove the option to revive with Merets after dying, and add Revive Vouchers into the Cash Shop for 50 Merets a piece. You can also get these from Kay's Wheel and the Event Wheel in Queenstown.
    Akuma524Sherri
  • AlzackAlzack
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    It basically shows an answer why healing classes can't have any single target / AoE revives (even with long cooldowns) when such p2w feature and access to Elixirs through Cash Shop persists (I'm aware of in-game revive vouchers and potions, both obtainable in many ways). It feels like "Secure raiding experience with your level 50 wallet" scream. The more you die, the more you'll pay for any mistake (even if it's not caused by you as player). I'm not fond of this system.

    Also I'm totally against any practice that allows spreading toxicity among community through features hidden behind paywall (no matter how much they cost or whether I can afford them or not). I don't want to imagine a potential situation in the future where showing middle finger with "Get good or scram" elitist attitude towards f2p players will be excused just because not everyone is born a pro and/or can't afford additional revives. Sure thing, it takes time to learn the mechanics and get familiar with environment but it'll only end with discouragement if people are kicked out of parties when they're not prepared in advance / viewed as cashers.

    While revive system seems like some anti-bot protection (if loot from raids becomes tradable after CBT2), the overall feeling of resurrection process through Cash Shop is a sign of flawed design when learning curve and effort of conquering raid content may paradoxically turn into effortless wallet fight without any risk of group's wipe.
    Kind regards!
    mirta000SnackCakesDanDKNaosNyuraLucisSherriXphobia
  • saipandasaipanda
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    Priest NEEDS a revive skill. If we were able to at least rez on a cooldown it would even out the pay 4 revive that they have now.

    I also thing that you should get a limited number of paid revives.

    Nexon, give Priest a revive skill. FFS, it's a healer class!! Rez is a basic healer skill. >:I
    SnackCakesmirta000DanDKSherriXphobiaLihno
  • VixroVixro
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    People just need any excuse to cry "p2w" lmao. Does the revive vouchers provide you with things that you cannot normally get if you are not using them? no? then it is not pay to win. Can fishing/performance not be ranked up if you do not use the auto vouchers? No you still can.

    These items are convenience items that are available to use but you dont have to use them/ using them will not give you a better benefit from people who dont use them. If you learn the mechanics you never have to use them and if you want to sit there reseting your fishing/performance you can do that as well and never have to spend a thing for them.

    The west is so quickly to label anything that improves quality of life/ convenience as pay to win when in fact it does not offer you something other plays cannot achieve without the use of these items. Next you will say rotor from premium is p2w.
    SeekerScorpioGarlicBreadLihno
  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
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    I am honestly shocked no one has brought up the fact that artists in this game have a pretty unfair advantage over every other player. XD

    #art2win

    True stuff, I seen supreme outfits sold over 75 times and that was just 1 item. the item was like 500-300 each even with tax if this was open beta that guy would be sitting on a ton of merets right now..
    SnackCakesMarchinBunny
  • HoIyHoIy
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    Sixaxis wrote: »
    mirta000 wrote: »
    HoIy wrote: »
    It actually benefits good players as well because in cdev there's a lot of one shot mechanic and every second counts since they had the monsters have so much hp with a 15 min requirement to clear. So when my guild was clearing it we literally only use merit revive in order to make it in time.

    This literally translates to "it is good that we can pay money to revive, because in this dungeon you HAVE to pay money to revive". That sounds like complete P2Progress and P2W to me.

    Chaos Dev is clearable within 3 revives by just meeting the Gear/DPS requirements for the party and knowing the mechanics. Even videos up on Youtube so people can skip the "learning the hard way" experience.

    The Balrog dungeon is the most relatable example of this. When people first started going into it, most wiped well over 3 times with both a Knight and a Healer and had to repeatedly use Merets to come back. After learning at what point the summons spawn, how to survive the purple AoE, and etc., it can now be cleared within 3 times without a Priest and if you have a geared Berserker, it can be done without a Knight.

    Of course you're not going to be doing Chaos Dev without a Priest or Knight, but the point still stands that completion of these dungeons is measured by gear and skills, not by how many times you can raise from the dead. This is obviously a P2W mechanic, but it concerns me no more than EXP Boosters do. If people want to spend 20~50 cents everytime they die in order to help the people who can clear it without dying X > 3 times, then so be it. If someone would be so willing as to spend money in order to come back and continue contributing DPS, getting a lower Grade Score and thus a lower chance of valuable loot in the process instead of just sitting out for the rest of the run, then so be it.

    However.. seeing a "Use 20 Merets to resurrect?" after dying is not a good look for the game... So we can meet Nexon halfway by asking that they remove the option to revive with Merets after dying, and add Revive Vouchers into the Cash Shop for 50 Merets a piece. You can also get these from Kay's Wheel and the Event Wheel in Queenstown.

    Well obvious if you have better gear you won't need it. If you're going to do it with +10/+11 though you can only afford to bring 1 priest and 1 knight. Since there are pots debuff it's really hard to find 10 people who can completely dodge the boss mechanic. That's when the instant revive help a lot. 1/2 clear can give you the best gear in the game instead of trying to +12 etc.

    So far the only guild that I saw that did it without legendary gear had people who had been playing kms/cms for months and no one in the west server even cleared it legitimately without over gearing.
    mirta000
  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
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    True stuff, I seen supreme outfits sold over 75 times and that was just 1 item. the item was like 500-300 each even with tax if this was open beta that guy would be sitting on a ton of merets right now..

    Yep, pretty much. It's sort of one of the reasons I am really looking forward to this game. Being an artist means potentially I would never need to pay for anything again. XD Mwhahahaha *cackles like a lunatic*

    Well, that is assuming I ever find the time to actually make something. XD From what I understand though, there is a limit to how much you can make, I think per month or something like that. But I mean, if it's a decent design, I doubt sales will completely stop. If you made quite a few designs, you probably would always have merets to spend.
  • ZerolioZerolio
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    edited 2:15PM July 30, 2018
    Vixro wrote: »
    People just need any excuse to cry "p2w" lmao. Does the revive vouchers provide you with things that you cannot normally get if you are not using them? no? then it is not pay to win.

    Godmode is not an advantatge to you? If you know you can pay revives forever you can even risk more and do extra DPS because you know that even if you die you will ress paying. Even without that, no matter how extremely pro you are, you can always die, stop acting like you are gods who can't die, you can even have a lag spike or whatever and die. So yeah, it IS pay2win.

    As someone stated, another problem with this is that this mechanic can create a ton of toxicity. Imagine you are fighting a boss as a f2p (or you simply do not want to pay more revives) and you die for whatever reason. The party could force you and flame you so you pay to revive and continue to do DPS/heal!

    And stop everyone with your arguments like "you are poor so you don't want it". I am pretty sure that most of us can afford it it is just that we do not want this game to become pay2win because we know the fate of all the pay2win games.
    mirta000DanDKNyuraSherri
  • SerfrostSerfrost
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    edited 2:22PM July 30, 2018
    Sixaxis wrote: »
    However.. seeing a "Use 20 Merets to resurrect?" after dying is not a good look for the game... So we can meet Nexon halfway by asking that they remove the option to revive with Merets after dying, and add Revive Vouchers into the Cash Shop for 50 Merets a piece. You can also get these from Kay's Wheel and the Event Wheel in Queenstown.

    This.

    I'm against paying to revive, but this is nothing new to be honest, not for Maplestory and not for other MMOs. Dungeons usually do have a hardcap on revives; such as DragonNest and whatever else you can recall. The only difference is that this game shows you that you can buy it even after you're dead.

    In MS1 and DragonNest you have to buy Resurrection Wheels / Resurrection Scrolls in the Cash Shop, otherwise you can't suddenly decide to revive if you're already dead in the dungeon. In MS1 it's worse because if you want to not lose your progress on a boss monster, etc, you even have to use these to Res in the spot/map you're in to stay there, not only in a Dungeon or Raid; lets not forget you lose 10% EXP, too. What took many hours to get can be taken away in 1 death if you don't have the P2W items.

    So, with that said, I don't see this option disappearing. However, they may change it to Revive Vouchers being purchasable in the Cash Shop; and if that's what they do, then I guess I'm okay with it. However, they should not sit there and shove it in people's face's that they "must pay to revive" right after they already have had an unfortunate turn of events... repeatedly... while in a single dungeon.
  • MONSTRMONSTR
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    I can see the idea of trying to clear high-level dungeons that are way out of your league for the drops. With luck, you can gear jump with that. Vindictus already had this implemented so I doubt they will remove it.
  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
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    I don't know. Mabinogi always had this feature where you could pay for premium and get 3 Nao revives each day. Then they eventually replaced it to were you could just buy nao stones and use those. As long as you had some you could revive instantly. It's never caused any issues like some people here seem to be claiming.

    I have not died yet in this game, but is there not ways for a player to revive another player? Cause in mabi, someone who had a nao stone could use it and then use feathers on the rest of the party. If there is no way to revive in such a manner, then I do think that is pretty shady lol.
    Xphobia
  • UnlimitedUnlimited
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    edited 3:27PM July 30, 2018
    I don't know. Mabinogi always had this feature where you could pay for premium and get 3 Nao revives each day. Then they eventually replaced it to were you could just buy nao stones and use those. As long as you had some you could revive instantly. It's never caused any issues like some people here seem to be claiming.

    I have not died yet in this game, but is there not ways for a player to revive another player? Cause in mabi, someone who had a nao stone could use it and then use feathers on the rest of the party. If there is no way to revive in such a manner, then I do think that is pretty shady lol.
    Mabinogi is another Nexon-game, I wouldn't be surprised if it has the same Pay-to-Win-system as this one. You wanna know what you just said? You are saying "this Mabinogi (which is from the same Publisher as this one) ...." has the same system as this. All you do is keep defending this Pay-to-Win system like a blind white-knight! Are you claiming that this will not cause any issue? LMAO! You can revive unlimited times with Merets. Besides being a pay-to-win and cash-grabbing system, it's also a system that creates toxicity. The problem with you, is you are in denial. Things will certainly not gonna be alright if things should be like this in release. It's obviously a broken system where you are forced to spend money. I have no problem with money in real-life, but I will not play a game where it's all about throwing your money in it. Break the progression-system and what is the point of the game?
    The game is Pay-to-Win, wake up from your own delusion! If you can accept and tolerate such Pay-to-Win, majority of MMO-players cannot. We know that this Publisher has reputation of it, and no matter what they say to save their image, this one is not giving them any good impression. Unlike you, I am not that gullible, if this game really do turn Pay-to-Win, I will not tolerate it, I would rather not get involved in it.
    DanDKGloomEnchantedWarmthBoundlessmirta000Zerolio
  • DanDKDanDK
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    edited 3:56PM July 30, 2018
    I'm not completely opposed to the idea of having X amount of revives paid for by Merets. It's when the number becomes literally unlimited that it's a problem. This means that people really can solo with 0 risk no matter how bad they are.
    Midboss wrote: »
    Besides making a joke about "...the fact that enough money will literally make you invincible" was a line said in a thread about using money to revive yourself from death, I would like to point out literally any MMO with a player trading system (more so when the MMO has an ability to gift items from the cash shop) will create a form of money = power.

    Only as far as the game allows it to. Does the game allow direct trading money for in-game currency or items? That's a conscious choice. Usually used with the standard excuse that it'd happen anyway through shady third party websites, but again, choosing to legalize it instead of battling these sites so ordinary people won't get involved in shady practices is also a conscious choice. (By the way, I'm not attempting to start another discussion about these mechanics, just pointing out that any MMO chooses to which degree they allow any flow of money to affect power.) It's funny how MOBAs are somehow able to thrive without ANY P2W at all, and MMOs could choose to follow suit, but in the end they are always too greedy.
    Also, since dying carries no consequences at all in this game, and money revives you unlimited times for free, then yes, for all practical purposes you are invincible when you pay for your revive, it's as if you were never dead in the first place. You are revived instantly, in place, with full HP and no debuffs. So that's practically being invincible.
    Think of it like this. If you are so bad at this game that you need to get pissy over someone being able to revive because they paid for it, then it wouldn't help you any more if they were in the same position as you. You would just now have company in being a bad player.

    I don't even understand your argument at this point. The players who are good are the ones that are going to be hurt because the bad players can now pay to cover up their own lack of skill to earn exactly the same clears/rewards by simply adding money. The bad players are the ones benefitting from the system, while the good players are hurt by it.
    mirta000 wrote: »
    This is actually the first game that I see where death might mean being totally unable to continue the content, F2P or no F2P.

    It's common in every normal MMO to have a party wipe and the boss reset completely if they fail at beating it. In MS1, a single death would eliminate you from the dungeon completely unless a Priest revived you. MS2 is actually very forgiving with allowing X safe revives and respawns, but having them become unlimited is ridiculous and unheard of in any normal MMO.

    This also includes the Normal Adventure Dungeons where you literally cannot lose and bosses never reset, which is also ridiculous for any serious MMO.
    ZerolioMidbossLucisXphobia
  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
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    I am not hurt by this system, it's weird how you guys are trying to get nexon make almost everything free or next to nothing. I think everybody should be able to gear up rather they suck or not, if you can't progress then you are most likely gonna quit. the way ppl here trying to turn this game it's gonna to end up like kritika with 10-20 players, but besides that the revive system is fine the meret cost increase each death so if a player willing to shell out 5464557657 money just to solo a boss that's fine it don't effect nobody but nexon wallet and his own wallet.
    MidbossSeekerScorpioBluclue
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