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>> http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/48341/awakening-patch-notes
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>> http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/45521/notice-regarding-striker-daily-wonders
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[Feedback] Level Progression

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  • RedvannRedvann
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 650
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    Todas wrote: »
    While I appreciate that you're at least trying, and that it must have been a very solid amount of work to reimplement and translate all those quests, it honestly seems like you didn't listen to any of the very detailed feedback you got from the community. The entire leveling process as it stands is completely worthless.

    1. Why in god's name is monster-slaying XP still so low in relation to questing? Surely this is a five-minute fix, you're telling me there's no "global monster XP modifier" variable in the files? Killing 100 monsters gives less XP than talking to a guy on one leg of the Epic questline and takes 3-4 times as long. Seriously, this is the absolute simplest fix you could implement and you'd get a ton of goodwill from the community for doing it.

    2. To piggyback off that, what's with the janky time-investment: reward ratios? A big boss like Chaw gives as much XP as killing 10 of the mobs around him but takes 5 times longer? A World quest gives as much XP as killing 10 mobs but takes 3-4 times as long? Dungeons too, dear lord, the XP for the effort you put in is awful. This is basic mathematics, you guys. It's not an "alternative" if one is so clearly better than the other.

    3. The Epic questline STILL gives attribute points, making it completely mandatory. There's no point adding leveling alternatives if you STILL have to do the Epic questline to begin with to unlock your full potential.

    4. I might be wrong on this and just hit the wrong breakpoints, but WHY do you have to complete the ENTIRE Epic questline in order? I should be able to jump in at absolutely any point and leave whenever I want. As it stand, if I go off and gain a few levels doing something else for a few hours, I'm stuck doing crappy low-level quests for no XP instead of level-appropriate ones!

    5. Levels still don't mean anything. Guys, seriously. What is the point of a 50-level tutorial that takes 10 hours to get through? Take a moment and think about it, and you'll realize that there's literally no point. The story in this game is garbage. The quest design is boring, you just run back and forth and talk to people. And the gameplay is NOT complex enough that you should need 50 levels to figure out your character. Either make it so that leveling to 50 takes an hour or two, or make it so that leveling to 50 takes a MONTH or two, and redistribute content across the leveling curve so you don't HAVE to be level 50 to play the game. Choose one of those options. They are both equally viable.

    You say that you tried to fix the leveling linearity in the game. You failed to do that - you still have to do the entire Epic questline to level efficiently, you just added a couple of slow breakpoints where you have to go do something else for a while. That's fine, but that "something else" is always 20% as efficient as the Epic questline itself was, which leads to incredibly awkward pacing issues where you're blazing along one moment and then crawling at others. MAKE UP YOUR MIND about how fast you want players to level in this game. If it's going to be slow, COMMIT to that. If it's going to be fast, make EVERYTHING fast and good XP. Grinding, exploration, playing music, fishing, placing decorations, make it ALL fast or ALL slow, not a mixture of both.

    THE MAIN PROBLEM IN THIS GAME IS THAT YOU ARE FORCED THROUGH THE EPIC QUESTLINE. CHANGE THAT. THE NEXT PROBLEM IS THAT THE LEVELING SPEED EITHER NEEDS TO BE WAY FASTER OR WAY SLOWER.

    As a side note I do notice that exploration rewards seem slightly higher in terms of XP, around 5% each? That's a good start, but they need to be closer to 10-15%, maybe even 20%, to match the speed of the Epic questline. And of course minigames are still the best part of the game by far.

    You put everything I wanted to say in better words. ^bump!
    zer0DanDKAlexmoVerloCaptainHookiiTricycleMpup16NicoopieeAlzack
  • BunCakesBunCakes
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 560
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    In the first beta you could only do the story and hit max level smoothly. In this beta it feels like a lot of times I'm getting outpaced by the quests and have to keep hunting for sidequests to do just so I can then go back and resume the main story quests. I like that side quests were added, but I'm not a fan of how it feels like I'm forced to do them just to level up. If we could at least do dungeons for good exp that would be fine, but it feels like they don't give good EXP either. IMO they should revert the main storyline back to how it was during CBT1 where it felt a lot more smooth to level a character from 1 to 50 than it does now.
    Stella_CodeVeinGarlicBreadMpup16Subglacious
  • EternalxEternalx
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 3,895
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    Levelling is very grindy and awful right now. I remember trying to hit level 17 doing quests, side quests, events and still missing 50%. Had to grind the rest out. If anything, grinding should be left till late game, not levels 1-50 (where were are still learning about the game). Like what everyone else said, i think the 1-50 MAIN quest line exp should be reverted back to CBT1. I want to enjoy other classes, but by the time i get to 50 with my main, i'll feel like quitting.
    CodeVeinAlexmoMpup16Subglacious
  • LilSleepyFoxLilSleepyFox
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,235
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    edited 7:02AM July 19, 2018
    I seriously don't understand people saying that levelling is too slow. It's so fast. I feel like I'm just running through the game, and every time I look back, I realise I missed like 60% of the content. If levelling at this speed is still considered slow, then just remove levels altogether. Tie level-restricted abilities and items to where you are in the epic storyline and just be done with it.

    That was sarcasm by the way. Slow levelling down and make all the methods of gaining exp equal, even the epic quests. Don't require players to complete the epic questline, just encourage it with some better item rewards, gear, materials, etc. Pretty much everything Todas wrote, though I'd say hitting 50 in a week would be fine, rather than a month. When the max level increases, you can always just buff exp gain below a certain level to help new players reach end game faster.

    Edit:
    Thinking about it, a lot of people complaining about levelling being too slow bring up the argument of wanting to level other characters as well. I think it would be fine to give players a large exp boost if they have another character with a higher level than the one they're currently playing.
    DanDKbolder_tasteEmmaClarkeKhalykTylerTheDragonBurnedLineElec_squirrel10CapturedRayneAgent_DragonfuryNimioand 8 others.
  • CyolCyol
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,285
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    For anyone upset about how quick it is to get to level 50, this is the closed beta and they want you to level quickly so you get a chance to experience everything and test all of the content. How can you test everything if you don't have the time to get to the max level?

    The max level in Korean MapleStory 2 is 99...after 3 years of it being out, no one is there yet. You can get to 70 pretty easily, but after that, it slows down. Ours will probably be similar to this on the actual release~
    CodeVeinXenostarsMisterBluElec_squirrel10NimioImberis
  • MarksmanBryanMarksmanBryan
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,475
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    I cannot use enough expletives to describe how much I despise the epic questline EXP nerf.
    Stella_HumbleCodeVeinXenostarsAlexmoVerloSubglacious
  • ShiktoShikto
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,950
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    edited 10:57AM July 19, 2018
    id like to see the story to be 100% optional, which means more ways of equally fast leveling.
    significantly raising the exp from grinding monsters, dungeons (which shouldnt have any limits), minigames, life skills, side quests and whatever else there is to do
    Stella_CodeVeinNimioHatManMpup16
  • MorninggMorningg
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 600
    Posts: 14
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    I love it! You done a good job! It’s well balanced! I enjoy the content!
    bolder_tasteEmmaClarkeAgent_DragonfuryNimioImberis
  • JacobieJacobie
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,610
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    The change to the leveling isn't a bad things overall. I don't mind it taking a little longer to do the epic quest, however there needs to be more than just world quests inbetween levels. It would be great if the dungeon exp was adjusted so it was viable to run dungeons between levels as opposed to having to go due quests that don't give meaningful rewards.
    CapturedRayneAgent_DragonfuryNimioLockeExile
  • ScarffyScarffy
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 805
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    CBT2 - The leveling for the Epic Quest Line has been reduced it seems, so that you'd have a bit of a 'gap' before you reach the next level, I really like this idea and pushed me to explore more that the game had to offer.

    Opinions on the different aspects of level progression:

    1. Epic Quest - Gives a good amount of exp, not too much, not too little. No replay-value at all if you were to level an alt. This is currently the best and only way to reach level 50 in a sensible amount of time, so I would expect much more effort put into the storytelling and gameplay quality.

    2. Party Quests - This is what banded players together in MS1, this was what people were most excited about, and I would be confident to say PQs and raids is pretty up there in the ranking of 'most enjoyable content for players.' However there is absolutely no reason to do PQs or Dungeons in terms of leveling, the exp at the end is the same as a blue side quest if not less, and the mobs don't give any exp at all (this one is a bit ridiculous). Since you are already capped daily on how many you can do, why not just give a much bigger exp reward for doing them?

    3. Grinding - Monsters and world bosses are difficult in terms of hp and damage, GOOD. I personally really enjoyed it this way, it made me as a knight group together with strangers to mob monsters, again was a really fun experience that banded players. Additionally, the exp is shared equally as long as you touch the mob and are within level range, if there was much exp to have in the first place.

    4. Mini-games & other - A lot of people get pumped when they see that in-game pop-up requesting if you want to join the minigame/pvp content, but sadly since it doesn't give much exp, I can imagine after a few weeks/months of launch when people are familiar with these minigames there won't be much reason to play them, let alone player attendance.

    I think the systems are in there to make an enjoyable leveling experience for players, there is a lot of good and exciting content in the CBT2 client however the priorities seem quite mixed up - much of the 'group' content isn't even worth doing in terms of leveling. I will stress this hard: MS1 was NOT most enjoyable for its end-game content, but rather for its journey along the way.
    DanDKNorthboundEmmaClarkeKhalykAgent_DragonfuryMpup16LockeExileAlzack
  • chaoscauserchaoscauser
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 950
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    edited 3:44PM July 19, 2018
    CBT1 >CBT2 i would rather hit level cap then explore everything. I should be able to hit level cap easily by doing any content i choose. I also felt super weak in comparison with CBT1. Although I played Bowman in CBT1 and heavy gunner in CBT2 i seem way way weaker.

    CBT2 seems even MORE GRINDY than the Korean version of ms2 i mean really..

    I suggest the MS2 team go and play Guild Wars 2 and see how they do things.. because the games are very similar. You hit 80 fairly easily by doing any of the content be it world bossing ,crafting ,story quests,exploration ect (content unlocks as you level) , and then you have mastery levels. Which are more grindy than the base set of levels. WildStar is also a similar game you could look at.
    Stella_HumbleCodeVeinXenostarsSubglacious
  • DanDKDanDK
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 33,515
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    The main problem with the levelling debate as I see it is that Nexon is currently conditioning people towards the mentality: Reach end game as soon as possible, then we give you all the good stuff. Thus, in order to obtain the good stuff, people keep whining at the least bit of effort it takes to get there in the first place, because nobody has the mindset to actually put in any work in the game and are fine with telling others to go back to MS1, a game that was itself ruined by post-BB patches to cheese game content and turn it increasingly P2W. Okay then.

    In order to have any reasonable discussion we should probably agree that it's necessary to consider all the content that revolves around levelling in the current game design. We have a bunch of Epic (main) and World (side) quests that nobody wants to do, dungeons from 1-50 that nobody wants to play, equipment and skill unlocks from 1-50 that nobody wants to use, maps that nobody wants to explore, mobs from level 1-50 that nobody wants to fight. Everyone wants to get to level 50 quickly. In fact, in CBT2 you can get to level 50 in less than 12 hours because I saw people at level 50 this morning, and people still think levelling is 'too slow'. Never in my life have I encountered a MMO where people are this desperate to skip all content in the game.

    So looking at it like this, it seems clear that the problem is rooted way deeper than just the level speed itself. You've actually got serious issues with your quests - they're boring and unrewarding, people don't like to do them. They'd rather rush to 50 so they can find other stuff to do. People don't want to play your 16-49 dungeons, there are too many of them and there is nothing special to do other than killing stuff and get rewards that will be outdated when you level up a few minutes afterwards. There is no really entertaining equipment unless you visit the Meret shop. Skills don't feel rewarding to unlock, everyone wants to get to 50 so they can reach their full potential because they don't like the journey. They don't like the journey because it's badly designed and rushed, and the worse it gets the faster people want to rush past it, and the worse you design it. It's a vicious cycle.
    Even for leisure activities like fishing and instruments, you had to design them so people could pay to skip them and level up without playing.

    So as I see it there are two possible outcomes here. Either you keep your meaningless design and help people skip it all, levelling will return to ultra fast speeds, people might as well start at level 50 with everything unlocked, and you can delete all quests, pre-50 dungeons, non-city maps, world mobs and exploration goals, because people only want to skip them anyway.
    Or you can start repairing the progression in this game as a whole, slowing down the XP rate, increasing the gains from all progress, designing content that people enjoy to explore, challenge and complete, rewards you with meaningful upgrades at every level and allows them to savour all the things they earn because they know it will be useful to them until their next milestone. Take the post-50 content and spread it back out across all levels. Make levels actually have meaning again. As I still like to think people are capable of logical sense, I refuse to believe that people truly want to 'rush' any MMO unless they truly believe that whatever they're rushing past is worthless. By redesigning the level system properly, you can fix this game.
    NorthboundMarkMmmviibolder_tastethenewmooXXPriestXX44TamakiSakuraShiktoTylerTheDragonVerloand 10 others.
  • MarkMMarkM
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 11,670
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    edited 7:09PM July 19, 2018
    I'm pleased that you've made the effort to respond to players' concerns regarding the leveling pace being too fast during CBT 1. The EXP rewards for the Epic quest line are no longer enough to progress straight through from quest to quest, requiring players to explore other content to make up the difference.

    The problem, however, is that the rewards for completing pre-level 50 Adventure Dungeons and World Quests still isn't comparable to the rewards for completing the Epic quest line. The Epic quest line is still very much mandatory to progress to level 50, which is problematic because the complaints levied against the story quests from CBT 1 was that they were the only viable way to get to level 50; unfortunately, the changes that have been made in CBT 2 have not changed the fact that the Epic quest is still mandatory.

    You've addressed the first part of the complaints from CBT 1 players, but you haven't quite addressed the second part: boost rewards from dungeons, killing mobs, and World Quests. Make it so that the Epic quest line isn't mandatory, so that players can progress to level 50 in any way that they want.

    Player's complaints about the Epic quest line now feeling too slow stem from the fact that there are still no alternatives to completing the story quests to get to level 50. If there was a more diverse array of viable options -- even if it still took the same amount of time to get to level 50 as it does at present -- it wouldn't feel as slow because players would have the freedom to play the game the way they want to.

    Keep the Epic quest line the way it is, but boost rewards from doing dungeons, side quests, and hunting monsters to fill the void that was left behind after rewards from the Epic quest line were reduced.
    mmviithenewmooEmmaClarkeKhalykCylilBlueIsotopesTylerTheDragonVerloElec_squirrel10Kjasanand 5 others.
  • mmviimmvii
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 4,990
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    Grinding mobs is pretty sucky exp I found, the main quest is really fast when it is up but when you are under leveled for it you either get like 3% exp from a side quest (and there is only a few of them, which is understandable) or you have to kill like 200+ mobs to finish the level. I think like MarkM said that boosting at least mob exp would be nice and maybe side quest exp too as there aren't many.
    DanDKKjasanSaphir
  • RicenchickenRicenchicken
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 625
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    Prestige leveling should not be capped either, or atleast raised. We are suppose to be testing this out, why are there limits? (prest xp, dungeon caps, raid caps, etc)
  • DanDKDanDK
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 33,515
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    I'd just like to add some elaboration to my post from yesterday as it might've come across a bit contradictory, I just felt I had to write something against the many complaints about slow progress. I've been thinking a bit more about it and am trying to understand people's reasoning.

    Let me start by adding a list of things you can do in the game pre50 and post50.

    Pre-50:
    Main quest
    World quests
    Exploration
    Minigame events
    World maps/events
    Dungeons
    Combat skills
    Life Skills
    Housing
    Fishing
    Music
    Cosmetics
    Socializing
    Arcade

    Post50:
    PvP
    Gear hunting
    Raids
    Pet Taming (final?)

    Let me also remind everyone that people generally agree that this is a social game, no matter their stance on levelling.

    During my time on the forums I generally see three categories of people.
    The first group would be some sort of social purists that mainly care about the pre50 aspects and don't care at all whether levelling is slow or fast because they have no interest in end game content. They don't really matter in the levelling debate context, but they do remind us that the game is mainly designed for social activities.

    The second group is the one I'd classify myself as, enjoying both the social stuff at my own pace but also looking forward to progress at end game eventually. For instance, during both CBT1 and CBT2, I spent many hours just enjoying the various content with friends and got about 5-10 levels a day, which is more than fast enough for me given what you can do. To us, incredibly fast levelling is a setback because it devalues the experience of every other activity and makes each success relatively less rewarding, as well as feeling a need to rush along to avoid falling behind.

    Finally, we have people very vocal about finding it too slow that they have to play an entire day to reach level 50. The only reason I can fathom for this is that they have no interest in the pre50 activities but only enjoy the post50 activities, hence rushing past content. These people want fast levelling so they don't have to bother.

    Now, as I mentioned in my previous post, many pre50 activities are badly designed which is in defence of the third group, but there are also many good social activities and they do serve as the foundation for this game.

    Considering that this is mainly a social game, I feel that there is no point to cater mainly to the last group, as the conclusion is that while some content should still be majorly improved, the people in this group are not interested in most of the game anyway, and therefore you are actually hurting the game and main community as a whole if you continue to attempt to satisfy this group.

    (Ironically, this also means that the argument about leaving the game if I don't like it could as easily be turned back at them, since they're actually the ones that are signalling disinterest in the majority of the content.)

    And therefore, I hope you will continue to improve progression design as a whole and not default back to a ridiculously instant levelling speed.
    bolder_tasteAwooVerloElec_squirrel10CapturedRayneNimioTiggoRechLockeExileSaphirAlzackand 1 other.
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
    Posts: 27
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    edited 2:08AM July 20, 2018
    Our 50 cap is more grindy than the Koreans 50 cap was, that alone should tell you something is wrong. Maplestory 2 is being marketed as a casual/social MMORPG, so the fact that a handful of people want to turn this game into pre-big bang Maplestory 1 bothers me. There needs to be an exp increase overall so people can level in multiple ways. Epic quest to 50? Yes, side quest to 50? Yes, grind field/dungeons to 50? Yes, hell if people want to mini-game/explore to 50 they should be able to. This game is developed around a daily/weekly limit and as such people need/want multiple characters. Slowing down level progression just makes leveling time consuming for the sake of being time-consuming. Remember, if the Koreans have less grind than we do? Then our version is wrong.
    KjasanCrowve
  • bolder_tastebolder_taste
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 745
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    A bit of background of what kind of a Mapler I am currently:
    I'm an undergrad student with summer responsibilities both at home and at school, and regarding CBT2, I dedicate approx. 4~5hrs to play this game per day, give or take an hour as fluctuation. Pretty much, this game serves the purpose as an activity that I can pour in time where I can reminisce about pre-BB MS1, as that is the version of MS that I've grown fond of. I've also played a 'different' version of MS where it was pre-BB with an increased EXP rate, so I am aware of the possibilities of a pre-BB MS with faster leveling.

    Also, I am a very meticulous person, so I enjoy looking into every little detail I can about something I am interested in. Game-wise, that means looking into the environment and every detail while playing all the Dark Souls games, so I've logged much more time (tens of hours) than the average completion time.

    How I'm playing CBT2 right now:
    As of writing this post, I'm a level 12 Thief that has not done any Epic quests, nor will I touch the Epic questline for this particular character. I am choosing to do this so that I can give my thoughts about a playthrough completing the Epic questline vs. a playthrough without it, from the same individual. I think that this type of feedback, at the end of the CBT2 period, can be useful and interesting to other players and the developers on their decision of what direction they would like to take this game to. My plan is to allocate the first week of CBT2 to playing my no-Epic-quest Thief and develop my thoughts on this playstyle, and then to start the second week of CBT2 playing a second character that I will engage in the Epic quests.

    On my Thief, I am emphasizing exploring each world map thoroughly (going through the entire map and trying to reach all nooks and crannies) and collecting the exploration gold stars, talking to the NPCs that I find in each map, doing the World Quests, and grinding on the monsters that are on my screen as I explore each map fully. I just reached Tria today and will continue exploring the city tomorrow, then move on toward the direction of the World Quests NPCs.

    Current thoughts:
    EXP-wise, on my way to Tria, I found that mob-grinding was a sufficient way of getting EXP, as each enemy gave ~0.25% to ~0.47% and the ratio of number of enemies per spawn location/wandering area over number of said concentrated areas provided ample opportunity to level up as I went through every bit of each map. It was a very generous gain rate, as I found myself ignoring small groups of monsters as an artificial wall so that I retained my current level long enough. Remember that these mobs and myself are <10, since we are dealing with the maps before Tria, so I do think this EXP rate is very fair.

    As I am a new player to this game (having not played a substantial amount of CBT1 (~1hr)), Lith Harbor and Tria served as large time-sinks that complimented my EXP-rate as I had plenty of space to move around and sightsee. Learning game mechanics on-the-go and socializing with other players via conversation, music, and mini-games are also included in this time-sink portion of my game experience, and I can say that my overall impression of the game is that I like it a lot.

    When factoring in my responsibilities and fundamental necessities, I was satisfied with the level progression as of now and enjoyed myself learn about and play this game. This does not represent my complete opinion of levels, areas, and monsters >12 as I have yet to experience these, of course.

    Future plans:
    I'll continue to keep tabs and update my log on my perception of the level progression of this game and report back any major opinion changes I may make throughout the course of this character. I hope that there will be an audience that is interested in outlier players who may play the game such as myself, and hope that my feedback will prove interesting to them and possibly benefit them.

    Take care everyone and happy Mapling! -bt
    Elec_squirrel10NimioLockeExileSaphir
  • AwooAwoo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,585
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    Everyone that's complaining about it being too slow and about it being "pointless" has never played a dungeon with anyone that's bought a skip-story item in something like FFXIV.

    It's slow because you have to introduce new players to mechanics and the skills of their class at a reasonable pace for them to actually learn anything.

    Yes that takes several hours.

    No you can't throw literally everything in the game at a player in very little time and then expect them to be competent. Players at level 50+ are expected to know their class, skills, and 12 hours minimum of gameplay mechanics and world. If you cut that down to just a few hours you will be screaming at people in dungeons for having literally no idea what they're doing, how to play their class, etc etc.

    If anything it should be a little slower than it currently is. There are still sections where you get a pile of mechanics and tutorials all thrown at you all at the same time and you spend 20-40mins having to go through them all, too much too fast is overwhelming and irritating.

    It definitely should not be faster.
    CapturedRayneNimioTiggoRechAlzackAlexFromCali
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
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    edited 4:20AM July 20, 2018
    Awoo wrote: »
    Everyone that's complaining about it being too slow and about it being "pointless" has never played a dungeon with anyone that's bought a skip-story item in something like FFXIV.

    It's slow because you have to introduce new players to mechanics and the skills of their class at a reasonable pace for them to actually learn anything.

    Yes that takes several hours.

    No you can't throw literally everything in the game at a player in very little time and then expect them to be competent. Players at level 50+ are expected to know their class, skills, and 12 hours minimum of gameplay mechanics and world. If you cut that down to just a few hours you will be screaming at people in dungeons for having literally no idea what they're doing, how to play their class, etc etc.

    If anything it should be a little slower than it currently is. There are still sections where you get a pile of mechanics and tutorials all thrown at you all at the same time and you spend 20-40mins having to go through them all, too much too fast is overwhelming and irritating.

    It definitely should not be faster.

    A Maplestory 2 player has at most 8 abilities on their bar. A Final Fantasy XIV player on average has 30+ abilities on their bar. I main SCH and I have 45 abilities on my bar. MS2 players need at most an hour or two to learn their class. MS2 at the highest level is nowhere near as complex/difficult as FFXIV at the highest level. I enjoy games as they were intended, I was against them making leveling easier in FFXIV because that game caters more to the hardcore crowd. I am against them making leveling harder in MS2 because this game caters more to the casual crowd.

    Edit - Just to be clear I agree with everything you said about FFXIV. The problem is FFXIV and MS2 are at completely different ends of the spectrum and cannot be compared.
    XenostarsBlueIsotopesVerloSubglacious
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