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PvP needs to be gear independent

Comments

  • AxyAxy
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    I think 1v1s and guild vs guild should be the only modes that are equalized since they rely on personal skill. Have everything else be unequalized so that people who do dungeons/raids to get their gear have something to use it on besides clearing the same content over and over.
  • MONSTRMONSTR
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,240
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    Drakooon wrote: »
    @Arwoo
    Arwoo wrote: »
    Just some questions to get more minds in on this topic.

    Would PvP be as fun with limited customization of equalized stats?
    Taking your own gear into PvP does give you more options when putting together your gear and crafting what works best for your class/playstyle.

    Some may want to build pure crit/crit damage, while other may prefer attack speed, or evasion. Making it so all gear is standardized would indeed test the skill of both pilots, but do you think it may also make play style one-dimensional?

    Do players want to feel progression in PvP in terms of putting to the test their work/investment on their gear? Or should PvE related progression stay strictly out of any PvP related content?

    Do you guys think gear disparity would be a permanent issue? Or do you think there may be a time when everyone has somewhat equivalent gear as time passes? Unlike MapleStory 1, MapleStory 2 seems to have a more obtainable gear ceiling.

    Not saying that this is a bad thing for MapleStory 1 of course. Some people prefer the feeling of near infinite progression in terms of becoming stronger and stronger. Also, these questions may sound phrased to push a non-equalized PvP future, but this is not the intention. This is a better way for us to collect more detailed feedback with additional factors in mind.

    Thanks!

    Would PvP be as fun with limited customization of equalized stats?
    Limited customization? No way! any gear that is uniquely customized for the player is all green! That shouldn't be the factor in PvP. There is one exception to this though... don't do that for 1v1....!!!

    Making it so all gear is standardized would indeed test the skill of both pilots, but do you think it may also make play style one-dimensional?
    In certain types of PvP matches yes. There is currently a Battle Royale in KMS2 and that type of PvP would be GREENLIT automatically without the need to "standardize" gear. I recommend Fortress Capture The Flag if it were me. It's the most superior PvP beside free-for-all..

    Do players want to feel progression in PvP in terms of putting to the test their work/investment on their gear? Or should PvE related progression stay strictly out of any PvP related content?
    As mentioned by some on this forums (already)..... PvP gear is tested and proven to be superior to PvE gear. If a player chooses to use PvE gear than they are giving a shot at PvP and should know the repercussions of PvE gear. As far as progression to get those PvP gears...? Hmm.. it would be right to start off with PvE at first. There shouldn't be an easy way to get PvP gear in the very beginning... especially PvP gear that would be GREATER than the best PvE gear. Start it off small.

    Do you guys think gear disparity would be a permanent issue? Or do you think there may be a time when everyone has somewhat equivalent gear as time passes?
    EVERYONE WILL EQUALIZE. Of course, there will be that 0.0001% that has insanely complicated gear obtained from mesos (important: NOT irl money: mesos). That's natural. But even if we say everything were equalized... how long? at it's current rate. LONG. If the answer and intention is to shorten that length...? My answer is that there is no way to do that. I said Mesos because it takes mesos to enhance gears which gets very expensive...?

    —Drakooon

    In this game, Stats do nothing to gameplay. They're just numbers that decide whether or not your hits matter to the other person. If you are worried about things becoming stale then focus on changing Skills so there isn't a cookie cutter build for every class in PVP. Game knowledge is the progression in PVP. And the "eventual equalization" completely kills your argument as progression stops eventually. It seems like you want players to jump hoops and climb mountains so we can play a fair PVP. The problem is, how many players are willing to do that? If you want PVP to survive you need to give the tools that are needed to succeed to as many people as possible. In PVP, players are the true content not unlocked gear score caps so you can kill your enemy in 1 shot instead of 2.
  • SaintoneSaintone
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 4,495
    Posts: 89
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    edited 7:26PM May 15, 2018
    Hi.

    I've have played PVP in KR and Global, and seen PVP in CN as well. Special PVP gear is extremely important for a number of reasons.

    One and foremost is accessibility. As players grow stronger and the amount of content that is available continues to rise, the entry level for PVP will continue to rise with it. The beautiful thing about KR PVP is that the moment you reach level 50, a full set of PVP gear is ready at your disposal for 650'000 Meso, a small amount at that level. This gear is designed with special PVP-specific stats in mind that have no bearing on PVE but make these items more powerful than the highest reinforced top grade PVE items in the game in the PVP environment.

    The other issue is giving players the liberty of full gear loadout and customization lends the fear that this game will allow gemstones and lumistones to affect our player power in the future if/when sockets are introduced. That is a major negative and gates out F2P from PVP.

    There is still some level of customization. In a few situations, players may opt to use certain gear or accessories over the PVP ones for a more custom set of stats without sacrificing any power that the vital armors and weapons provide.

    PVP is not so one dimensional in Maplestory 2. Perhaps right now, people have only seen a very small amount of PVP driven by gear and DPS race. But playstyles, skill point investments, and the player's knowledge in match-ups still add a huge amount of dynamic to each match.

    To keep the PVP environment as fun and fair as possible, I would hope that PVP gear will be introduced into our version. As compensation, please consider lowering the gear score of these items to 0, so that they cannot serve as an easy means for players to boost their gear score for raid content.
    HoIyRamzaDrakooonFriendship
  • KewkkyKewkky
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 6,235
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    They could just have a Geared mode and a Non-Geared mode. EZPZ.
  • TSM_DaequanTSM_Daequan
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
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    edited 7:29PM May 15, 2018
    I wish PvP would not be gear based. Theres no way to compete with the top players who play all day even if mechanically you are just as good or better than them. But if gear will matter, then there should be PvP gear that is better than PvE gear in PvP. Just my two cents.
  • MushMush
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    edited 7:59PM May 15, 2018
    Whats the point of having both options? it's just going to make queue times way longer, who knows how long they could last.
    Just make it fixed pvp gear, whats the point of game gear?
    The point of pvp should be, if you're better, you're better, not if you have more money for more gear then you're better.
    The only 1 person who can beat people with better gear right now is Mercenary but he's just a gift from god and the majority just get kicked in the ass.
    I see it way too many times in Red Arena Events, I check the characters stats, and not one time was I wrong when I said "this guy is gonna win"
    because he had the better gear.
    Tomoaki
  • SolarTriSolarTri
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 650
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    I agree about equalization. I had a +8 Nutaman Staff and, trust me, I had no idea what I was doing half the time and I could still roll people who were under-geared. I hope to see PvP gear like KMS2 or just some effort to reduce the dependence on GS to PvP. This mode is super underrated, and I hope to really pick it up if y'all do it right!
  • HoIyHoIy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 4,220
    Posts: 248
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    Mush wrote: »
    Whats the point of having both options? it's just going to make queue times way longer, who knows how long they could last.
    Just make it fixed pvp gear, whats the point of game gear?
    The point of pvp should be, if you're better, you're better, not if you have more money for more gear then you're better.
    The only 1 person who can beat people with better gear right now is Mercenary but he's just a gift from god and the majority just get kicked in the ass.
    I see it way too many times in Red Arena Events, I check the characters stats, and not one time was I wrong when I said "this guy is gonna win"
    because he had the better gear.

    Having both option is like trying to meet in the middle with Nexon. Since they want people to spend money to roll on people.

    Even Mercenary is at least 2.9k GS if you're anything lower and you're not playing knight/priest/zerker good luck.
  • lazycrazylazycrazy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,060
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    mby just add pvp "fairplay" mode where gear doesnt matter
  • NimeroNimero
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,925
    Posts: 53
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    Arwoo wrote: »
    Just some questions to get more minds in on this topic.

    Would PvP be as fun with limited customization of equalized stats?
    Taking your own gear into PvP does give you more options when putting together your gear and crafting what works best for your class/playstyle.

    Some may want to build pure crit/crit damage, while other may prefer attack speed, or evasion. Making it so all gear is standardized would indeed test the skill of both pilots, but do you think it may also make play style one-dimensional?

    Do players want to feel progression in PvP in terms of putting to the test their work/investment on their gear? Or should PvE related progression stay strictly out of any PvP related content?

    Do you guys think gear disparity would be a permanent issue? Or do you think there may be a time when everyone has somewhat equivalent gear as time passes? Unlike MapleStory 1, MapleStory 2 seems to have a more obtainable gear ceiling.

    Not saying that this is a bad thing for MapleStory 1 of course. Some people prefer the feeling of near infinite progression in terms of becoming stronger and stronger. Also, these questions may sound phrased to push a non-equalized PvP future, but this is not the intention. This is a better way for us to collect more detailed feedback with additional factors in mind.

    Thanks!

    I consider any sort of competitive scene like a sort of sport. Being better than other people should come from skill, practice and talent. It should not come from who has better gear and better stats. For example in baseball people practice throwing, batting and running to become better at the sport. The sport is about who can outplay the other team not who has the best baseball bats or who has the best baseballs. Gear makes PvP feel more like a mini-game than anything else. Honing your skills and brain should be what controls a fight. If a skilled fighter has knife and is fighting someone else who has a gun we all know who the obvious winner is. Same for if someone who has a Blue weapon but is a skilled fighter against someone who a has an enhanced Purple weapon the winner is still most likely gonna be the purple weapon (Unless the person is just that bad). In any sport fair play is what everyone stands by PvP should not be any different. Also costmizing gear isnt really a thing since everyone ends up going the same gear and the same stats anyways. Legendary gear with piercing or crit.

    Omega.png
  • FriendshipFriendship
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,660
    Posts: 29
    Maple Guide
    Another problem induced by having gear-dependent PvP is that classes that have less of a role in PvE become much weaker in PvP intrinsically just by having less gear. This very problem goes into PvP class balance brought by an in-direct effect due to how the class performs in PvE.

    We saw in Chinese MapleStory 2 that Berserkers, Knights, and Assassins all topped the "tier list" just because they had greater success than other classes like Thief and now even Striker, which both have greater success in PvP in the Korean version up until job awakenings.
  • WarameWarame
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,820
    Posts: 57
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    PVP should always be equalized.
    Gear based PVP is the same as fighting naked people using a bazooka.
    Zero fun.
  • AxyAxy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,020
    Posts: 85
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    Still no word on if this will be addressed or not, feelsbadman :(
  • UnlimitedUnlimited
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 12,650
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    edited 2:50PM July 24, 2018
    I think you people are asking for too much. This is an MMORPG, if stats do not matter here, then what kind of progression are you working for? Exactly, there is no incentive!
    Did you know that if you made this fully skill-based, it will not be an MMORPG anymore, but a skill-based game which is a MOBA? This is an MMORPG, ofcourse, stats matter (that's what you work for!).

    And yeah, I also came from Black Desert, it should work that way because it's an MMO! If it's not about AP, then what are you working for?

    And yeah, what kind of progression-system would you like to have in this PVP? Since stats/gears do not matter at all, you want a scoreboard-system right? That is a MOBA! If skill is all it takes, then it's a MOBA game!

    Progression-system for both PVE and PVP should reward you physically for your participation, effort, and dedication. What kind of reward would that be since you don't want gears to matter or have any use?

    If you want gears for PVE and PVP to be separated (that means 2 different sets; a PVE and PVP gear), that is fine. The way Revelation Online solved this is through Marks(shards) slapped through your Gear(you earn PVE and PVP marks/shards on your participation on PVE/PVP-activities and you slap it in your gear. You can combine those marks/shards to increase their tier, thus affecting your PVE or PVP stats), this way, both activities are separate.
    To make the whole PVP-system a skill-based will not make this game an MMORPG anymore, and should that happen, I will quit, because I am here to play an MMORPG. They advertised this game as an MMORPG, and you want them to deliver a MOBA gameplay?
    GloomEnchantedWarmthBoundless
  • AxyAxy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,020
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    Unlimited wrote: »
    I think you people are asking for too much. This is an MMORPG, if stats do not matter here, then what kind of progression are you working for? Exactly, there is no incentive!
    Did you know that if you made this fully skill-based, it will not be an MMORPG anymore, but a skill-based game which is a MOBA? This is an MMORPG, ofcourse, stats matter (that's what you work for!).

    And yeah, I also came from Black Desert, it should work that way because it's an MMO! If it's not about AP, then what are you working for?

    And yeah, what kind of progression-system would you like to have in this PVP? Since stats/gears do not matter at all, you want a scoreboard-system right? That is a MOBA! If skill is all it takes, then it's a MOBA game!

    Progression-system for both PVE and PVP should reward you physically for your participation, effort, and dedication. What kind of reward would that be since you don't want gears to matter or have any use?

    That'd be great and all if you could actually gear through pvp, and I'd be fine if there was gear specific to pvp. Right now the game is broken because anyone who can clear the hardest content can autowin vs people in pvp who cannot, legendaries are insanely more powerful than purple gear. Also MOBA's aren't the only skill based games out there, don't delude yourself.

    Also in regards to the scoreboard system you're referring to, have you even tried the pvp in maplestory 2? The main format is a 1v1 style arena.
  • WarameWarame
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,820
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    Unlimited wrote: »
    I think you people are asking for too much. This is an MMORPG, if stats do not matter here, then what kind of progression are you working for? Exactly, there is no incentive!
    Did you know that if you made this fully skill-based, it will not be an MMORPG anymore, but a skill-based game which is a MOBA? This is an MMORPG, ofcourse, stats matter (that's what you work for!).

    And yeah, I also came from Black Desert, it should work that way because it's an MMO! If it's not about AP, then what are you working for?

    And yeah, what kind of progression-system would you like to have in this PVP? Since stats/gears do not matter at all, you want a scoreboard-system right? That is a MOBA! If skill is all it takes, then it's a MOBA game!

    Progression-system for both PVE and PVP should reward you physically for your participation, effort, and dedication. What kind of reward would that be since you don't want gears to matter or have any use?

    First, MOBA = Multiplayer Online Battle Arena
    The PVP system on Maple2 has nothing to do with that.

    Now, PVP should always be equalized because there is no fun in anihilating your enemy just because you have better equips.
    PVP is fun when you face your opponents with the same stats and you still manage to outplay them. That's a real victory.

    And about rewards.
    They could implement outfits/mounts/titles/etc that you can only obtain by getting certain ranks on the PVP mode.
    These will not have any stats. But they will show other people that you are a very skilled person on PVP.
    I think these kind of items would be great additions.
    Axy
  • UnlimitedUnlimited
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 12,650
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    edited 3:25PM July 24, 2018
    I have no problems separating PVP and PVE activities, if you want gears to be separate, I have no problem with that.
    Also, in terms of Rewards, nothing is rewarding (this can be subjective) if it is not physical. Winning a PVP match is not rewarding to me without an actual reward that is gaining or working to gain on anything. Just killing someone is not rewarding. Again, they have to back it up with concrete rewards. Nobody will participate in it if you don't add these.
    How do you plan to implement the rewards? PVP stat/gear-progression is the typical solution that you see in almost all PVP-based/PvEvP MMOs. They are all like that because they have to feel rewarding for people to participate in it. There has to be a progression-system for it, stats is something typical for this progression-system. If you have any other solution to the progression-system, feel free to share. If it has no progression-system, the activity has no incentive, it's not gonna work.

    This is why in MMOs, stats significantly matter, it's what you're working for! Aside from skills, they have to matter!
    GloomEnchantedWarmthBoundless
  • AxyAxy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,020
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    Unlimited wrote: »
    I have no problems separating PVP and PVE activities, if you want gears to be separate, I have no problem with that.
    Also, in terms of Rewards, nothing is rewarding (this can be subjective) if it is not physical. Winning a PVP match is not rewarding to me without an actual reward that is gaining or working to gain on anything. Just killing someone is not rewarding. Again, they have to back it up with concrete rewards. Nobody will participate in it if you don't add these.
    How do you plan to implement the rewards? PVP stat/gear-progression is the typical solution that you see in almost all PVP-based/PvEvP MMOs. They are all like that because they have to feel rewarding for people to participate in it. There has to be a progression-system for it, stats is something typical for this progression-system. If you have any other solution to the progression-system, feel free to share. If it has no progression-system, the activity has no incentive, it's not gonna work.

    This is why in MMOs, stats significantly matter, it's what you're working for! Aside from skills, they have to matter!

    Just because YOU need some sort of reward for doing pvp doesn't mean everybody feels the same way, a lot of people play video games for fun, and pvp in Maplestory 2 is fun and rewarding in it's own right because of the skill involved, and there's quite a few people who feel that way. Nothing about going against someone in full gear and 1 shotting you before you can even do anything is fun.

    BnS is a prime example of a game with equalized PvP that has a dedicated community, there's no inherent reward for doing the pvp within the game, it's just fun and competitive.
  • UnlimitedUnlimited
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 12,650
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    edited 3:42PM July 24, 2018
    Axy wrote: »
    Unlimited wrote: »
    I have no problems separating PVP and PVE activities, if you want gears to be separate, I have no problem with that.
    Also, in terms of Rewards, nothing is rewarding (this can be subjective) if it is not physical. Winning a PVP match is not rewarding to me without an actual reward that is gaining or working to gain on anything. Just killing someone is not rewarding. Again, they have to back it up with concrete rewards. Nobody will participate in it if you don't add these.
    How do you plan to implement the rewards? PVP stat/gear-progression is the typical solution that you see in almost all PVP-based/PvEvP MMOs. They are all like that because they have to feel rewarding for people to participate in it. There has to be a progression-system for it, stats is something typical for this progression-system. If you have any other solution to the progression-system, feel free to share. If it has no progression-system, the activity has no incentive, it's not gonna work.

    This is why in MMOs, stats significantly matter, it's what you're working for! Aside from skills, they have to matter!

    Just because YOU need some sort of reward for doing pvp doesn't mean everybody feels the same way, a lot of people play video games for fun, and pvp in Maplestory 2 is fun and rewarding in it's own right because of the skill involved, and there's quite a few people who feel that way. Nothing about going against someone in full gear and 1 shotting you before you can even do anything is fun.

    BnS is a prime example of a game with equalized PvP that has a dedicated community, there's no inherent reward for doing the pvp within the game, it's just fun and competitive.

    Like you already said, if you turn the PVP that way, it will just be a match-mode for fun (and I don't know about "competitive", because you are competing for what? It's just fun).
    I would rather have contents for PVP than have it this way (if you want, we can also have a Ragnarok-like PVP-mode in this game where you just PVP for fun with no rewards). What other MMOs besides BnS that have that kind of PVP-system? None! Because it doesn't feel rewarding to most people.
    GloomEnchantedWarmthBoundless
  • AxyAxy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,020
    Posts: 85
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    Unlimited wrote: »
    Axy wrote: »
    Unlimited wrote: »
    I have no problems separating PVP and PVE activities, if you want gears to be separate, I have no problem with that.
    Also, in terms of Rewards, nothing is rewarding (this can be subjective) if it is not physical. Winning a PVP match is not rewarding to me without an actual reward that is gaining or working to gain on anything. Just killing someone is not rewarding. Again, they have to back it up with concrete rewards. Nobody will participate in it if you don't add these.
    How do you plan to implement the rewards? PVP stat/gear-progression is the typical solution that you see in almost all PVP-based/PvEvP MMOs. They are all like that because they have to feel rewarding for people to participate in it. There has to be a progression-system for it, stats is something typical for this progression-system. If you have any other solution to the progression-system, feel free to share. If it has no progression-system, the activity has no incentive, it's not gonna work.

    This is why in MMOs, stats significantly matter, it's what you're working for! Aside from skills, they have to matter!

    Just because YOU need some sort of reward for doing pvp doesn't mean everybody feels the same way, a lot of people play video games for fun, and pvp in Maplestory 2 is fun and rewarding in it's own right because of the skill involved, and there's quite a few people who feel that way. Nothing about going against someone in full gear and 1 shotting you before you can even do anything is fun.

    BnS is a prime example of a game with equalized PvP that has a dedicated community, there's no inherent reward for doing the pvp within the game, it's just fun and competitive.

    Like you already said, if you turn the PVP that way, it will just be a match-mode for fun (and I don't know about "competitive", because you are competing for what? It's just fun).
    I would rather have contents for PVP than have it this way (if you want, we can also have a Ragnarok-like PVP-mode in this game where you just PVP for fun with no rewards). What other MMOs besides BnS that have that kind of PVP-system? None! Because it doesn't feel rewarding to most people.

    Then there has to be a balance, because with how the game currently works, I'm pretty sure having the best gear and one shotting someone with no gear isn't very rewarding, and will make the pvp in the game only cater to the 1% of hardcore players.