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My problem with dungeon caps and other content.

ZekeNazariZekeNazari
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edited 8:44PM June 23, 2019 in Dungeons
For a game that revolves around dungeon clearing, the cap makes it hard to progress especially for those who fall behind after breaks.Also, some players who are new have a hard time finding party members and struggle to clear new content and progress. I don't find much to do after i'm capped out. I'm not a fan of the quest system that essentially has me feeling like i'm doing a daily chore, albeit i'm sure they're people who disagree. I feel like the game needs to have other forms of progression for players who aren't into the repetitive dungeon runs, perhaps grinding on mobs?
I had such high hopes for this game at first, but unfortunately it's nothing what I've expected and personally doesn't fit my taste...

This is just my view, but i'd like to know if the community feels the same way? Agree, Disagree and why?
Anura_RayleighVIIDeWoo

Comments

  • DefraglifeDefraglife
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    ZekeNazari wrote: »
    For a game that revolves around dungeon clearing, the cap makes it hard to progress especially for those who fall behind after breaks.Also, some players who are new have a hard time finding party members and struggle to clear new content and progress. I don't find much to do after i'm capped out. I'm not a fan of the quest system that essentially has me feeling like i'm doing a daily chore, albeit i'm sure they're people who disagree. I feel like the game needs to have other forms of progression for players who aren't into the repetitive dungeon runs, perhaps grinding on mobs?
    I had such high hopes for this game at first, but unfortunately it's nothing what I've expected and personally doesn't fit my taste...

    This is just my view, but i'd like to know if the community feels the same way? Agree, Disagree and why?

    The cap annoys the hell out of me. I'm falling behind others because of bad luck finding weapon copies and failing enchants. Peachy requires too much imo still compared to getting lucky with Ophelia.
    Wlia
  • Anura_Anura_
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    Personally I use Peachy from +12 to 15 because it actually requires less duplicates than Ophelia assuming average luck (i.e. 25% chance would take you 4 tries to succeed).
    As for dungeon cap, it should definitely be a thing. It helps to narrow the gap between wageslaves and students vs basement-dwelling NEETs who can spend 12 hours a day playing the game. But the cap should be raised, I think to 40/week for dungeons and doubled for raids. It's a rather slow process to enchant legendary weapons; the only reason I have a +11 staff is that i bought a scroll with crystal ore. 12 or so pink bean clears haven't been enough to get to +12.
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    Anura_ wrote: »
    It helps to narrow the gap between wageslaves and students vs basement-dwelling NEETs who can spend 12 hours a day playing the game.

    No it doesn't, if anything it hurts those "wageslaves and students" who can't afford the time to make X alts to support their mains. Finding a party is a lot harder if you cant play right after the reset which wouldn't be the case if it weren't for the clear count limits. Those with limited time to play would be amongst the people who would profit the most from the removal of these restrictions.
    DefraglifeDeWoo
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    Anura_ wrote: »
    It helps to narrow the gap between wageslaves and students vs basement-dwelling NEETs

    And what's the grand purpose of that?
    WliaDeWoo
  • RayleighVIIRayleighVII
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    i do agree with this and iv'e talked to quite a number of streamers and players that quit and the reason they gave for why they left the game fits the situation. atm theres a 15 dungeon cap and a couple hrs until the reset but the thing is....remove the god damn 15 cap and just give us a flat 60 weekly cap the game is designed around dungeons but the limitation that are implemented are ridiculous as such a player can cap his /her weekly in 1-2 days..this needs the change
    Defraglife
  • DefraglifeDefraglife
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    edited 7:08PM July 6, 2019
    i do agree with this and iv'e talked to quite a number of streamers and players that quit and the reason they gave for why they left the game fits the situation. atm theres a 15 dungeon cap and a couple hrs until the reset but the thing is....remove the god damn 15 cap and just give us a flat 60 weekly cap the game is designed around dungeons but the limitation that are implemented are ridiculous as such a player can cap his /her weekly in 1-2 days..this needs the change

    Big facts. Game resets on Friday and I cap my dungeon runs by Saturday night. Friday is 15 runs Saturday the final 15 runs and I'm not a elite basement living whale. I manage my time to be able to knock those out. But 60 weekly cap would be beautiful. Remove daily cap.
  • RakiyaRakiya
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    I'm going to support the unpopular argument that the dungeon caps are fine.
    While I know it wasn't the point ZekeNazari was trying to make they've kind of hit the nail on the head with:
    ZekeNazari wrote: »
    I don't find much to do after i'm capped out. I'm not a fan of the quest system that essentially has me feeling like i'm doing a daily chore, albeit i'm sure they're people who disagree. I feel like the game needs to have other forms of progression for players who aren't into the repetitive dungeon runs, perhaps grinding on mobs?

    The game needs to implement an alternative way of progressing.
    Or at least some sort of alternate activity that's rewarding.
    Personally, I think dungeons are way too rewarding.
    While I'm sure it'd outrage a lot of people, I'd prefer to see the truckload of Onyx Crystals obtainable from dungeons to be removed completely. It's ridiculous that people can farm materials to upgrade their gear, as well as the gear, (as well as a fair chunk of mesos) from the one activity. Different activities should yield different rewards, and as things stand the game has put all it's eggs in the one basket.

    Defraglife wrote: »
    The cap annoys the hell out of me. I'm falling behind others because of bad luck finding weapon copies and failing enchants. Peachy requires too much imo still compared to getting lucky with Ophelia.
    I agree that enchantments cost too much and should be lowered.
    The way the game treats Onyx Crystals at the moment isn't healthy.
    The solution to high-prices isn't to print more money(onyx).
    It's a short-term fix that'll probably come crashing down around them at some point.

    Regarding your other point though? Everyone deals with bad luck.
    Unless you can prove the RNG is specifically made to go against you, we all fail enchants, and we all have bad luck finding weapon copies most of the time.
    IllIIl wrote: »
    No it doesn't, if anything it hurts those "wageslaves and students" who can't afford the time to make X alts to support their mains. Finding a party is a lot harder if you cant play right after the reset which wouldn't be the case if it weren't for the clear count limits. Those with limited time to play would be amongst the people who would profit the most from the removal of these restrictions.
    I'm sorry but your argument makes no sense.
    Limitations exist in favor of people with limited time.
    Removing the cap would just mean people with a lot of time would play more, and those with less time would fall behind more.
    If people can't afford the time to have X-alts to feed their mains, I'm sure they don't have the time to do unlimited dungeons either.

    As for finding a party, I suppose that's what they're trying to resolve with the latest dungeon helper thing.
    Remove the god damn 15 cap and just give us a flat 60 weekly cap the game is designed around dungeons but the limitation that are implemented are ridiculous as such a player can cap his /her weekly in 1-2 days..this needs the change
    It sounds to me like the developers need to shift some of their designing away from dungeons then.
    The problem with increasing the dungeon cap is pretty simple. They need to work out a nice number that keeps a lid on character progression, but also cater to those of us with way too much time on our hands.

    Simply put, if you can do 15 dungeons a day. Raising the cap to 60 just means you'll be done in 3~4 days and have nothing to do for the remainder of the week. Reading through the arguments made in this thread it sounds like people are really struggling to pace themselves. So a better alternative would be to impose a daily cap of say 5 dungeons a day.
    Encouraging people to log in daily to do dungeons instead of it being just the first two days.

  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    edited 7:52AM July 26, 2019
    Rakiya wrote: »
    I'm sorry but your argument makes no sense.
    Limitations exist in favor of people with limited time.
    Removing the cap would just mean people with a lot of time would play more, and those with less time would fall behind more.
    If people can't afford the time to have X-alts to feed their mains, I'm sure they don't have the time to do unlimited dungeons either.

    It does make sense you're just misunderstanding how the progression in this game actually works. Without the limits those with limited time could farm rog with their main char which would go significantly faster than altstory 2. It would also lower the prices which would also benefit those who don't have the time to farm the catalysts for themselves. Endgame progression on the other hand is heavily bonus attribute focused but this progression has diminishing returns in regards to the time invested. Getting purple rolls on your gear might not take that long but getting max rolls does and investing X times the time doesn't mean that you're going to make X times the progress. Without caps everyone would get to +15 rather quickly which would already "close the gap" quite significantly, the rest comes down to bonus attribute rolls which while still quite noticeable isn't nearly as much of a difference as what we have right now cause aggain: diminishing returns.


    Rakiya wrote: »
    As for finding a party, I suppose that's what they're trying to resolve with the latest dungeon helper thing.

    Not really, they're trying to make trying to carry a newbie less of an annoyance for the veteran players but the system is heavily flawed and it isn't going to work as originally intended (which they themselves already admitted on both reddit and the livestream).
  • RakiyaRakiya
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    edited 9:42AM July 26, 2019
    IllIIl wrote: »
    It does make sense you're just misunderstanding how the progression in this game actually works. Without the limits those with limited time could farm rog with their main char which would go significantly faster than altstory 2. It would also lower the prices which would also benefit those who don't have the time to farm the catalysts for themselves. Endgame progression on the other hand is heavily bonus attribute focused but this progression has diminishing returns in regards to the time invested. Getting purple rolls on your gear might not take that long but getting max rolls does and investing X times the time doesn't mean that you're going to make X times the progress. Without caps everyone would get to +15 rather quickly which would already "close the gap" quite significantly, the rest comes down to bonus attribute rolls which while still quite noticeable isn't nearly as much of a difference as what we have right now cause aggain: diminishing returns.
    Ah, I see what you mean now.
    There'd be a less of a gap between people who play a lot, and not as much because the former would be sitting at max stats, and complaining about how there's nothing for them to do in the game anymore. And the latter would be even more pressured to catch up since... unlimited dungeons runs. Yeah, not sure that's the sort of game I'd be interested in.

    There's an obvious issue with catalysts costing too much at the moment. Something the developers seem to be well aware of considering the lucky box event, and the constant x% off enchanting things they keep doing. So personally I consider the catalyst issue an entirely separate issue. It's something that needs to be addressed, but making people do more dungeons and dismantling most of their stuff probably isn't the right way to go about things.


  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    Rakiya wrote: »
    Ah, I see what you mean now.
    There'd be a less of a gap between people who play a lot, and not as much because the former would be sitting at max stats, and complaining about how there's nothing for them to do in the game anymore. And the latter would be even more pressured to catch up since... unlimited dungeons runs. Yeah, not sure that's the sort of game I'd be interested in.

    You seem to have a very warped picture of reality. You do realise that even without the caps the access to re-roll scrolls would still be almost non existent, right? Uniques seem to have a drop rate of ~1%, maybe even lower meaning that on average you'll need to farm ~2600 dungeons just to get the item catalysts for one accessory done through normal gameplay. Saying that the hardcore players would have maxed out everything is just straight up nonsense as even if they remove the caps getting max rolls on everything before they release the next batch of content is just unrealistic. Also, how exactly would people be "even more pressured to catch up"? Who would pressure them? Would they pressure themselves? I could just as well say that the caps pressure people to do X amount of runs if they don't want to feel like they're wasting something as they can't just accumulate unused runs. So what if they can't play with the biggest elitist on their server, big deal. Most hardcore players actually don't really care about your gear as long as you get at least the basics done and even that is rather content dependent. Not that that would even matter given how faceroll the content already is after you finished your basic gear progression.


    Rakiya wrote: »
    There's an obvious issue with catalysts costing too much at the moment. Something the developers seem to be well aware of considering the lucky box event, and the constant x% off enchanting things they keep doing. So personally I consider the catalyst issue an entirely separate issue.

    Not really, dungeons are a main source of catalysts and that's not going to change (nor should it). It's one of the reasons why people want the clear count restrictions gone. Now there is more to this issue then "just dungeons" but putting in alternative ways to farm catalysts without removing the caps would be just as much of a half-baked solution as just removing the caps and not putting in any alternatives.


    Rakiya wrote: »
    It's something that needs to be addressed, but making people do more dungeons and dismantling most of their stuff probably isn't the right way to go about things.

    Making people do something and giving players the option to do something are two completely different things. Like I said the ability to farm onyx with your main would already reduce the amount of time one has to spend on running dungeons for catalysts. You're making a lot of baseless assumptions here.
    Defraglife