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People don't want Dungeon Cap removal. They want..

GinsamaGinsama
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in Suggestions and Feedback
Welp. Title won't fit.

People don't want Dungeon Cap removal. They want a way to catch up, even if partially, to the day one grinders.

It is a legit issue to a good sector of players that they were around days/weeks/ months after an update and have to deal with a toxic set of people who kick them from parties for not having....

A. Full gems
B. an Arbitrary upgrade level
C. Perfect lines
If I'm missing something feel free to tell me.

It's a growing complaint that I see that people want to remove dungeon caps so that they can keep playing to gear up. I find that the core of these desires are not being able to reach the same heights, but rather to enjoy the content others are enjoying.

The idea is supposed to be that higher tier players carry lower ones as time goes on. I agree this helps and that the PTSD of the community post-chaos rises is doing a lot better at helping them out. But there needs to be more that can be done

I'm at a loss as to what to suggest when my best ideas all involve attacking the trade restrictions that I have repeatedly criticized in the past as harming the games ability to foster new players and keep old ones. These trade restrictions , in this context, affect gems and the current level 60 equipment we don't have trade ribbons for. For a newbie player, there is no way to get a full-gemset required to pug non-toxically in a period of time where it will be relevant, and they can't even work their asses off to farm for even a weak fodder weapon to bridge them through content.

Lemme just say one thing

Expecting higher power players to foster newbies is not a reliable concept to depend on for game health

Depending on such charity means dooming anyone who can't find higher level friends, it means certain people will never reach endgame ( o/ this was me trying to get my first pap clear to get into infernog), and it means the toxic element of your game has greater power over game health than usual.

Anyway, those are my feelings on the matter. I understand that the dungeon caps are not going away, and in a way, I like that because it means I don't have to stress. But catchup mechanics, in particular, need some love. Whether it be tradeable gems , expediting when we get trade ribbons, or something else, I felt this all needed to be said.
WliaNakagyoSomeblackmageDayDream2Defraglife

Comments

  • IllIIlIllIIl
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,510
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    edited 10:34PM June 25, 2019
    Actually they want both depending on who you ask. Those who can't stand dungeons or are bored of them want alternative methods to gear up but those who like dungeons want the dungeon caps to be gone. It's not just about "catching up", many people want to grind the content they like but they can't because of A: the dungeon caps or B: the content in general not being rewarding (treva nstuff) leaving them with nothing to do the vast majority of the time (aside from creating alts they don't like).
    NakagyoDefraglife
  • WliaWlia
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,485
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    edited 12:30AM June 26, 2019
    Ginsama wrote: »
    Welp. Title won't fit.

    People don't want Dungeon Cap removal. They want a way to catch up, even if partially, to the day one grinders.

    It is a legit issue to a good sector of players that they were around days/weeks/ months after an update and have to deal with a toxic set of people who kick them from parties for not having....

    A. Full gems
    B. an Arbitrary upgrade level
    C. Perfect lines
    If I'm missing something feel free to tell me.

    It's a growing complaint that I see that people want to remove dungeon caps so that they can keep playing to gear up. I find that the core of these desires are not being able to reach the same heights, but rather to enjoy the content others are enjoying.

    The idea is supposed to be that higher tier players carry lower ones as time goes on. I agree this helps and that the PTSD of the community post-chaos rises is doing a lot better at helping them out. But there needs to be more that can be done

    I'm at a loss as to what to suggest when my best ideas all involve attacking the trade restrictions that I have repeatedly criticized in the past as harming the games ability to foster new players and keep old ones. These trade restrictions , in this context, affect gems and the current level 60 equipment we don't have trade ribbons for. For a newbie player, there is no way to get a full-gemset required to pug non-toxically in a period of time where it will be relevant, and they can't even work their asses off to farm for even a weak fodder weapon to bridge them through content.

    Lemme just say one thing

    Expecting higher power players to foster newbies is not a reliable concept to depend on for game health

    Depending on such charity means dooming anyone who can't find higher level friends, it means certain people will never reach endgame ( o/ this was me trying to get my first pap clear to get into infernog), and it means the toxic element of your game has greater power over game health than usual.

    Anyway, those are my feelings on the matter. I understand that the dungeon caps are not going away, and in a way, I like that because it means I don't have to stress. But catchup mechanics, in particular, need some love. Whether it be tradeable gems , expediting when we get trade ribbons, or something else, I felt this all needed to be said.

    THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAY THE WHOLE FU.... TIME !!! YES someone else also noticed this and dosnt have butt load of lies to make lame excuses...
    also you forgot to mention you can get help from end game players BUT only if you flush tons on meso on them per dungeon run.
    NakagyoDefraglife
  • GinsamaGinsama
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    Wlia wrote: »
    THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAY THE WHOLE FU.... TIME !!! YES someone else also noticed this and dosnt have butt load of lies to make lame excuses...
    You actually are the person who inspired me to write this.

    Wlia
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    Wlia wrote: »
    you forgot to mention you can get help from end game players BUT only if you flush tons on meso on them per dungeon run

    That's actually not true, I've seen many people offering free carries for several dungeons and raids. The two main factors here seem to be whether or not the content in question can be cleared within a timeframe the one who carries the party deems to be acceptable even if most people are underperforming and whether or not the player reached the cap for the content in question. Those who take "tons of meso" are generally already capped and wouldn't run otherwise so the alternative would be no runs at all.

    I do agree however that expecting better geared players to help out undergeared players is naive at best.
  • MomokaaMomokaa
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    It was not long for me to start seeing x dungeon 200k+ attack, 300k+ attack and so on. A new player will not have anything close to that unless they are insanely lucky with stats on gear. It also takes far too long to unlock gem slots past the first one. You have people advising newer players "just use the 50 gear" only for them to think it is easier for them to obtain gems/slots this way and is confused.

    I had to correct someone today that comments like that assumes you did the content back then to be established. This game has too big of a gap between established players and new players and guess what? the crystal ore and needing to raise 3 legendary sets just makes the problem WORSE!!! why make a problem worse if the development is aware of these problems existing in the first place?

    I do not expect to be on par with established players but I do not also expect the gap to be exponentially larger due to how access works in the RBG runs and all the weekly caps around this stuff.

    Another thing that needs to be lowered or eliminated is RNG gating. get unlucky over and over again? too bad people do not want you for newer content. peachy or ophelia costs needs another look, along with what you need for gear copies to advance and such. For example, Why do I need 2 weeks just to get 10>11 just to prevent being screwed over by rng? that is not fun.
  • GinsamaGinsama
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    Momokaa wrote: »
    It's an unfortunate position to be put in when you want to gate players ability to crush it really hard yet your measuring stick is a set of players who will crush it no matter what just from sheer persistence.

    Gems seem to be the sore one for new players that I've seen. The requirement of having a full 9set and no way to catch up in a timely(keyword here) manner is steep, and AFAIK you have to depend on your weekly boxes, stellar glass, and then if you're still lacking you need to depend on guild funds to bridge the gap.

    I still don't understand why gem boxes were removed from Treva. I'm starting to cap out my treva and I'm basically forced to drop it on outfits for my alts. If I could drop on gem boxes instead, I'd be set on my gems.

    This is truly outrageous. Truly Truly Truly outrageous.
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    Ginsama wrote: »
    It's an unfortunate position to be put in when you want to gate players ability to crush it really hard

    That one is entirely on Nexon and their weird obsession with linear game desin and turning basic gear progression into prestige. If they don't want players to "crush it really hard" then they shouldn't reward them with gear which is desined to do exactly that. This wouldn't even be an issue if the difficult content for the "highest achievers" were ballanced around +15 endgame gear like it should have been.
  • GinsamaGinsama
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    IllIIl wrote: »
    Ginsama wrote: »
    It's an unfortunate position to be put in when you want to gate players ability to crush it really hard

    That one is entirely on Nexon and their weird obsession with linear game desin and turning basic gear progression into prestige. If they don't want players to "crush it really hard" then they shouldn't reward them with gear which is desined to do exactly that. This wouldn't even be an issue if the difficult content for the "highest achievers" were ballanced around +15 endgame gear like it should have been.

    Sadly my statement was to be taken as a whole there (one time where I must stress such as , as a whole, it's a very important concept; that the measuring stick isn't the general populace but the toptier hard grinders ) but I generally agree with you. I get the prestige element, what isn't all that considered from what I see in effect are the social elements of all this.

    My feelings on this game's social features are too many to put here :/ I think a whole update needs to be dedicated to expanding being able to just... HANG OUT , to trade, to help out your fellows. For a game that prided itself as the successor of Maple1, there isn't all that much to get together and DO
  • DefraglifeDefraglife
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    Let's see if the moderators address this or takes this situation seriously as it is a big problem.
  • GinsamaGinsama
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,940
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    edited 6:59AM July 4, 2019
    I'm replying to you over here because I do not want my topic about improving the social fabric of maplestory 2 to be about f***ing onyx.
    IllIIl wrote: »
    Not really, there is no rule that says that they have to do that and realistically there is no reason for them to do it either. Also, it's you who need to understand that there is already an "infinite capacity to farm" since you can just bypass the clear count restrictions by playing on alts and there is no limit on how many alts you can make.
    12 alts per account atm and I have only one account. You're too attached to the idea of removing dungeon caps to see any other viewpoints mydude.

    You said I need to understand something, but let me take a stab at your shallow logic because I can see this is becoming hostile.
    Back at launch, I was running alts to 50 in 4 hours. My last two alts came into existence due to a combination of the burning event and the level 60 potion. The cost of this "infinite capacity to farm" is 4 hours per 9~10k onyx a week(before transferring bound). Each of these alts require 30 seconds to 3 minutes (5 if you are bad?), 30 times a week.

    so essentially, I'm paying 4 hours for the ability to spend 15 minutes to 1 hour, 30 seconds a week. The more alts I have, the longer this farming process becomes.

    168 hours in a week. Lets take away 4 hours a night to sleep just so we can take an example of the sweatiest farmer possible. 140 hours. 8400 minutes.

    At best the sweaty farmer can run 560 alts, down to about 90~100 more when getting toward the 3 minute clear mark.

    To prepare that many alts, you are running AT LEAST 360~ 2240 hours of main story before you need to bridge the gap with a bit of grinding for your free epic set at level 60.

    All removing dungeon caps does is remove this 360hour+ restriction on potentially massive profits. People didn't like the dungeon resetter because they felt pressured to use all the runs and were burning out more. The developers recognized this and disabled it. Now let me be frank about something.

    DungeonStory2 is why I quit the game until this newest update. IF you're really advocating for dungeon caps to be removed to "fix" the resource situation, I and plenty of other players will likely be forced to quit out of sheer boredom and tediumif that were the only change to be made

    I captured this little nugget on the discord
    bad3257741adfd169b7e5b3f78f0f4fb.png

    Here is a guy who is making a lot of sense and his idea is at least semi reasonable. I can see some form of this idea getting through in the way of allowing cosmetics or something to continue dropping from capped dungeons. What I would like to point out to you is the like and dislike ratio. Obviously, this idea has some merit, but /more/ people do NOT want to run more dungeons than the 30 per week.
    These restrictions are not protecting anyone from "burnout". If anything the opposite is true, it would go much faster if people could farm the missing catalysts for their upgrades with their mains (or buy them for cheap on the BM) as compared to how much time it would take with slow alts they don't even like playing.
    And the point of that would be? To make sure that the hardcore players aren't to far ahead of everyone else? Hardcores rushing to the end of the content so that they can start min-maxing is nothing new and has never been a problem in any game. The amount of content they have to play to get there would still be the same for everyone regardless. If anything it's the more casual players who are hampered the most from these restrictions as they don't go the extra mile to make X alts and have their progression speed severely reduced as a result of it.

    Unfortunately the history of gaming in general is not on your side. The best I can give you is that you are correct about a section of the playerbase, not all. There are psychological precedents in place as well about the release of serotonin in the brain all at once versus over time, the latter being more likely to bring a player back. Mobile games in particular are the biggest abusers of this area of human psychology with their piecemeal energy systems.

    One of the biggest factors in a player quitting a game is because they spent all their energy on one goal

    The art of an online game is to lead the most players to a satisfying state of power and keep them coming back for more with each new update. What people most often neglect is just how much energy a player has to get to their goal. Remember my measuring stick argument? This is where it applies most. The measuring stick seems to be the most hardcore players, when it should be the /average/ player. The ones who aren't on the radar as much because most of them quit already.

    And for those only reading this reply, please refer back to the OP on this topic to read my viewpoints on how capped/uncapped resourcing should work
  • IllIIlIllIIl
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,510
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    edited 10:02AM July 4, 2019
    Ginsama wrote: »
    12 alts per account atm and I have only one account.

    And I know many people who have several as there is no limit on how many accounts you're allowed to have, your point?


    Ginsama wrote: »
    You're too attached to the idea of removing dungeon caps to see any other viewpoints mydude.

    I see the other viewpoints, problem is that most of them are incredibly flawed. The best thing that has been brought up in regards to justifying these caps is the effect it has on bots using dungeons to generate meso but there are other ways with far less collateral damage to address this issue.



    Ginsama wrote: »
    You said I need to understand something, but let me take a stab at your shallow logic because I can see this is becoming hostile.

    Don't like it then don't use this kind of language, simple as that.


    Ginsama wrote: »
    Back at launch, I was running alts to 50 in 4 hours. My last two alts came into existence due to a combination of the burning event and the level 60 potion. The cost of this "infinite capacity to farm" is 4 hours per 9~10k onyx a week(before transferring bound). Each of these alts require 30 seconds to 3 minutes (5 if you are bad?), 30 times a week.

    so essentially, I'm paying 4 hours for the ability to spend 15 minutes to 1 hour, 30 seconds a week. The more alts I have, the longer this farming process becomes.

    168 hours in a week. Lets take away 4 hours a night to sleep just so we can take an example of the sweatiest farmer possible. 140 hours. 8400 minutes.

    At best the sweaty farmer can run 560 alts, down to about 90~100 more when getting toward the 3 minute clear mark.

    To prepare that many alts, you are running AT LEAST 360~ 2240 hours of main story before you need to bridge the gap with a bit of grinding for your free epic set at level 60.

    And how is this supposed to take a stab at my "shallow logic"? Prepping up new atls is still the most efficient way to progress once your done with your existing ones. The restrictions don't prevent the hardcore players from burning out and the more casual players would only play until they get what they need to upgrade their EQ anyway as they are generally not striving for perfection.


    Ginsama wrote: »
    All removing dungeon caps does is remove this 360hour+ restriction on potentially massive profits.

    And that's where you're wrong. Removing the caps would:

    - alleviate the pressure to do your runs as fast as possible as you don't have to worry about finging other players who still have their runs left

    - make it easyer for new / returning playes to catch up to the rest of the playerbase

    - would end the nessesity to run alts for progress which in turn would destigmatize them

    - would end the nessesity to make everything character bound as farming with an alt wouldn't give you "unbalanced advantages" anymore

    - would solve the onyx / RNG issue for those who like running dungeons

    - would make it easier to help out newer / struggling players as running dungeon X wouldn't impact the player running other dungeons later on

    There's more but it's obvious that there is more to it then what you want to make it out to be which is rich coming from a person criticising others for "not seeing other viewpoints".


    Ginsama wrote: »
    People didn't like the dungeon resetter because they felt pressured to use all the runs and were burning out more.

    Yeah because they still feeld like they were missing out if they didn't do all the runs which wouldn't be the case if you remove the clear count limits because then you would only have to concern yourself with the runs required for weeky bonus rewards which would be the case regardless.


    Ginsama wrote: »
    DungeonStory2 is why I quit the game until this newest update. IF you're really advocating for dungeon caps to be removed to "fix" the resource situation, I and plenty of other players will likely be forced to quit out of sheer boredom and tediumif that were the only change to be made

    I don't advocate for "dungeon caps to be removed to "fix" the resource situation", I want them gone because of the negative impact they have on the game in general. Also, I said time and time again that there should be both: a removal of the dungeon caps and alternative ways to progress. But it should really be alternatives and not just supplements or replacements.


    Ginsama wrote: »
    I captured this little nugget on the discord
    bad3257741adfd169b7e5b3f78f0f4fb.png

    Here is a guy who is making a lot of sense and his idea is at least semi reasonable. I can see some form of this idea getting through in the way of allowing cosmetics or something to continue dropping from capped dungeons. What I would like to point out to you is the like and dislike ratio.

    Which is irrelevant as a "dislike" doesn't give a reasoning, for all I know the ones who disliked it are just some people who don't want to lose the income they get from selling their runs. If you find a solid reasoning against the removal of the clear count restrictions feel free to bing it up but spare me this apeal to popularity nonsense.


    Ginsama wrote: »
    Obviously, this idea has some merit, but /more/ people do NOT want to run more dungeons than the 30 per week.

    And they wouldn't have to especially if Nexon implements some actual alternatives.