Check out the patch notes for the v18 Kritias Expansion here: http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/45974

What's up with the low population?

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  • ArurauneAruraune
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    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    Only now listening to feedback from players on how to 'fix' this game is a huge time waster.

    One thing to note is that the company should most of time listen to what we're complaining about and not to our suggestions on "how to fix".

    Example:
    - If too many people are telling "please, fix Ophelia's RNG" it doesn't mean that they must fix Ophelia's RNG, they could for example, fix Peachy and make non-RNG enchantment mainstream.

    We're most of time bad at giving them solutions but are the perfect source to see what's wrong and what are the worse things in the short-term.

    It also doesn't mean that they should only focus no what we're complaining. On another line of thought, they can do like they're doing with the PNL announcements:
    - Give us a topic and let us complain. Directing our feedback into a narrow view to see where and what they can rework from their original idea.

    Also, I'm sure they're doing their own research and this is why Project New Leaf isn't about *only* picking our opinions and implementing but also us giving feedback on Nexon ideas, sometimes almost unpredictable by us players (as majority) as some of the changes were.

    As for rebuilding the game from scratch, that's most likely not going to happen. Some things doesn't need to change, you don't need, for example, to rebuild from scratch and do something about some Normal Dungeons. That was already playtested in korea and reached the state we have now.

    I'm pretty sure, for example, the majority would find it boring to play ALL normal dungeons and grind them to level up on ALL their characters without help from geared players, watching ALL cutscenes and etc and trying to kill bosses with weak characters that doesn't have all skill points. Also, a lot of people would find it boring to have to walk to maps by taxi, then walk more maps, then walk a full map until its end, with the entire partym until you find a dungeon portal just to like, enter Balrog, do 15 runs then walk all the very same path with another set of alts/mains.
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    edited 12:54PM April 15, 2019
    Why the game is so empty? It's a combination of multiple things. The most obvious reason is the clear count restriction. Why should I still play the game after I reached the clear count for the thing I want to progress towards? Many people want to grind but can't because the game is essentially telling them "go play something else".

    Another big thing is the fact that the entire endgame boils down to "rumble and raids". Just look at the more successful RPGs like GW2, PSO, BL2, D2 and tell me what exactly counts as "endgame" in these games. Noticed something? It's usually not focused on a specific subsection of the game and some of these games are still played despite not having a content update for decades. Overly focusing all the progression on one part of the content is naturally going to turn of everyone who doesn't enjoy it so there is either an alternate way to progress (which all the afrormentioned games provide) or the players move on to other games that have what MS2 failed them to offer and it's not that MS2 is short on content most of it is just irrelevant.

    Which is one of if not the main downside of games that overly focus on linear content / gear progression, it creates massive amounts of throwaway content. This might work for story driven single player RPGs like your typical JRPG but is absolutely toxic for games which are (or better should be) geared towards keeping players engaged for an exteded period of time.


    Aruraune wrote: »
    One thing to note is that the company should most of time listen to what we're complaining about and not to our suggestions on "how to fix".

    I have to disagree here, while people are generally good at pointing at a problem most of them usually don't bother to explain why. Looking at the solutions they propose at least tells you more about what's actually wrong with the thing they complain about. ArenaNet for example goes exactly down this path of "looking at the complains" and working on from there and their balance patches are pretty much always a big s**tshow because of it. Knowing "what the problem is" is worth nothing if you don't fully understand "why".

    I also agree with Bulbasaur on that they should look more at what worked for other games as it should be quite apparent to everyone who played many RPGs that some issues only appear if a certain design philosophy is present.
  • ArurauneAruraune
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    IllIIl wrote: »
    I have to disagree here, while people are generally good at pointing at a problem most of them usually don't bother to explain why. Looking at the solutions they propose at least tells you more about what's actually wrong with the thing they complain about. ArenaNet for example goes exactly down this path of "looking at the complains" and working on from there and their balance patches are pretty much always a big s**tshow because of it. Knowing "what the problem is" is worth nothing if you don't fully understand "why".

    Oh, that's very true, yes. Doesn't mean they need to implement the suggested fix but the suggestion itself is a good feedback.
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    edited 9:53PM April 16, 2019
    Aruraune wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    Only now listening to feedback from players on how to 'fix' this game is a huge time waster.

    One thing to note is that the company should most of time listen to what we're complaining about and not to our suggestions on "how to fix".

    Ok... replace "how to fix" with "what is wrong with"; it makes no difference. The players who quit early on (the vast majority) likely have far more issues with this game than just one or two issues like "RNG" as spouted by players still playing the game.
  • NahoNaho
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    edited 5:14AM April 25, 2019
    Peep wrote: »
    I've never understood why people keep saying "too little too late". Was it too little too late when FF14 completely flopped and had to undergo a complete overhaul? There were people subbing and continuing to support the game for months through the hard times because they were hopeful it would succeed. Why can't people do the same here?

    You have Nexon who is actually listening to player feedback very carefully and implementing player suggestions. It's something you really don't see in many MMOs. Yes there are a handful of things that probably should have happened earlier but we don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

    They seem to be slowly crafting this MMOs progression system so it's similar to FF14 which is a really good thing. I think once more content is added and adjusted for our version this game will be on the right track to success. People need to be willing to stick around and give Nexon a chance though. You have to remember also they've taken a heavy p2w game with crazy amounts of rng and slowly adjusting all that for our version.

    Maybe people are just bitter from MS1 and past Nexon games.

    Destroy then quit , that's what they are good at. Complain and get what they wanted, realize it made everything worse later on when nexon listened, complain more, nexon not taking everything in consideration to keep a balance, they get mad and quit, then when nexon decide to go all in because at this point they got nothing to lose, they complain that it's too late when the game just became casual af now, exactly how they wanted it. "Too late" is just an excuse from ppl who weren't interested in the game enough. No one come to me saying "i was hardcore blablabla".
    ArurauneSylqt
  • ÄrtÄrt
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    edited 8:02AM April 25, 2019
    You have Nexon who is actually listening to player feedback very carefully and implementing player suggestions.

    90% of player feedback - we want everything to be as easy as possible in game without content.

    People need to be willing to stick around and give Nexon a chance though

    Theres hardly anything to stick around for. I'm really strugging in coming up with reasons not to quit, theres quite literally nothing to do outside of hd spam for some gold, which isnt even needed for anything other than selling it for merets. You do your raids for first 2 days after reset and that's it. In a market saturated by so many interesting games, why anyone would even sit here for probably 1-2 more months without anything to do. By then this game will be so empty that future updates wont even matter. This games difficulty does not exist either at this point, after this update you can easily pull your weight in cpap with even less than leg +10.
    Bulbasaur
  • ArurauneAruraune
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    Ärt wrote: »
    Theres hardly anything to stick around for. I'm really strugging in coming up with reasons not to quit

    You're probably reading the doomposts too much, I'd recommend to avoid them a bit and wait for the next expansion and prepare for it. Take it slowly now. The Lv.60 content + awakening is really better, and by a lot.

  • DefraglifeDefraglife
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    Aruraune wrote: »
    Ärt wrote: »
    Theres hardly anything to stick around for. I'm really strugging in coming up with reasons not to quit

    You're probably reading the doomposts too much, I'd recommend to avoid them a bit and wait for the next expansion and prepare for it. Take it slowly now. The Lv.60 content + awakening is really better, and by a lot.

    I agree but I hope the summer update doesn't disappoint seeing as though they kinda put their own spin on the KMS updates. We need striker!!!?!
  • ÄrtÄrt
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    Aruraune wrote: »
    Ärt wrote: »
    Theres hardly anything to stick around for. I'm really strugging in coming up with reasons not to quit

    You're probably reading the doomposts too much, I'd recommend to avoid them a bit and wait for the next expansion and prepare for it. Take it slowly now. The Lv.60 content + awakening is really better, and by a lot.

    Forced positivity won't change whats clearly visible.
  • PeepPeep
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    Ärt wrote: »
    You have Nexon who is actually listening to player feedback very carefully and implementing player suggestions.

    90% of player feedback - we want everything to be as easy as possible in game without content.

    People need to be willing to stick around and give Nexon a chance though

    Theres hardly anything to stick around for. I'm really strugging in coming up with reasons not to quit, theres quite literally nothing to do outside of hd spam for some gold, which isnt even needed for anything other than selling it for merets. You do your raids for first 2 days after reset and that's it. In a market saturated by so many interesting games, why anyone would even sit here for probably 1-2 more months without anything to do. By then this game will be so empty that future updates wont even matter. This games difficulty does not exist either at this point, after this update you can easily pull your weight in cpap with even less than leg +10.

    That's never what the feedback was. Of course if Nexon gives that people are willing to take it due to past frustrations.

    At this point people are sticking around purely because we have a publisher and developer who is willing to listen (almost impossible to find in MMOs these days) and for friends. Anyone who started at launch has been at the point where they can clear all raids for months now. Having t10 gems or whatever isn't going to change that, only make it slightly faster. We've been at this point for months. It's just a period of suffering people are going to have to go through before the major update. I think now that project leaf is over they'll have more time to get more content to us quicker.

    Most people I know who are still playing do what they need to and play other games for now. Still log in daily etc but there's only so much you can do in game at the moment. Everyone I know wants this game to succeed which is the main reason they stick around rather than straight up quit. Just chill out. I'm sure they'll have a trailer or teaser on May 11th at Maplefest for the new patch. Should get people hyped again.
    Defraglife
  • ÄrtÄrt
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    That's never what the feedback was. Of course if Nexon gives that people are willing to take it due to past frustrations.

    At this point people are sticking around purely because we have a publisher and developer who is willing to listen (almost impossible to find in MMOs these days) and for friends. Anyone who started at launch has been at the point where they can clear all raids for months now. Having t10 gems or whatever isn't going to change that, only make it slightly faster. We've been at this point for months. It's just a period of suffering people are going to have to go through before the major update. I think now that project leaf is over they'll have more time to get more content to us quicker.

    Most people I know who are still playing do what they need to and play other games for now. Still log in daily etc but there's only so much you can do in game at the moment. Everyone I know wants this game to succeed which is the main reason they stick around rather than straight up quit. Just chill out. I'm sure they'll have a trailer or teaser on May 11th at Maplefest for the new patch. Should get people hyped again.

    That's always what majority of feedback was. Past frustrations of sitting on dust for 3 months after failing 10 times total you mean.

    You're saying they are sticking but from what I see they arent, even today I saw guy shout in world chat "see ya in a month, back to wow" . Even people who come back instantly quit just because they have nobody to play with. Listening to everything is never good because people never have enough of free. Here you are calling it slight increase and yet it was very important to you to cap out everything with as little effort as possible, you argued against logic and reason just to get that at all cost. Probably because it's not slight increase at all, but gigantic one. Today I was in random pug cpap, it took 5 min so it's absolutely ridiculous lol, oh and it was 8 man too. Now here we are, content connected to leveling gems basically doesnt exist, I maxed everything before reset by only semi saving for 2 weeks after announcement. Theres nothing to do, people already completed this new event on first day which im assuming will last whole month and run around in cat suits.

    At this point this doesnt even resemble mmo, where you work towards something and then are proud of achieving it. It's just some casual thing you play for 20 min every couple days.



    Naho
  • DefraglifeDefraglife
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    edited 3:51AM April 26, 2019
    This is why at this point we need a teaser for the summer update or some small information. Something to get the playerbase exited again and interested in playing. Project new leaf was good intentionally but took too long to materialize. It shouldn't have taken a month for each thing. The game badly needs new content or summer update preview. We are high and dry right now.
  • NahoNaho
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    edited 4:06AM April 26, 2019
    Peep wrote: »
    Ärt wrote: »
    You have Nexon who is actually listening to player feedback very carefully and implementing player suggestions.

    90% of player feedback - we want everything to be as easy as possible in game without content.

    People need to be willing to stick around and give Nexon a chance though

    Theres hardly anything to stick around for. I'm really strugging in coming up with reasons not to quit, theres quite literally nothing to do outside of hd spam for some gold, which isnt even needed for anything other than selling it for merets. You do your raids for first 2 days after reset and that's it. In a market saturated by so many interesting games, why anyone would even sit here for probably 1-2 more months without anything to do. By then this game will be so empty that future updates wont even matter. This games difficulty does not exist either at this point, after this update you can easily pull your weight in cpap with even less than leg +10.

    That's never what the feedback was. Of course if Nexon gives that people are willing to take it due to past frustrations.

    At this point people are sticking around purely because we have a publisher and developer who is willing to listen (almost impossible to find in MMOs these days) and for friends. Anyone who started at launch has been at the point where they can clear all raids for months now. Having t10 gems or whatever isn't going to change that, only make it slightly faster. We've been at this point for months. It's just a period of suffering people are going to have to go through before the major update. I think now that project leaf is over they'll have more time to get more content to us quicker.

    Most people I know who are still playing do what they need to and play other games for now. Still log in daily etc but there's only so much you can do in game at the moment. Everyone I know wants this game to succeed which is the main reason they stick around rather than straight up quit. Just chill out. I'm sure they'll have a trailer or teaser on May 11th at Maplefest for the new patch. Should get people hyped again.

    90% of the "Feedback" were about making the progression easier, 7% about what we could add to the game so ppl not interested in raid could enjoy something and 3% were feedback on the pvp scene.
    Because of the 90%, the 7% couldn't go through. Nexon spent months giving away stuff so ppl would not get tilted and would be PATIENT until they find a correct way to balance things. Due to the amount of crybabies who wanted to tryhard but got denied by the rng, the rest of the content was delayed. Remember, it's started from ppl who were pretty sure about what they were talking about? Kms2 p2w game, cash shop has this and that. After most of the things were useless in the cash shop and nexon wouldn't make money out of that, they were even complaining about the price of the costume from the style crate. For the most part this community was only thinking about their own pocket.
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    edited 4:49AM April 27, 2019
    Naho wrote: »
    90% of the "Feedback" were about making the progression easier

    More like 5% were actually asking about lowering the difficulty of the content beyond what was originally intended. Simply removing RNG from the equation by itself doesn't change the difficulty of the content in question. If anything you can say that they were asking for progression to become less tedious but that's about it. Now there is a problem with linking content which is intended to be difficult with other content which sole purpose it is to trivialize it but that's not something I've seen anyone complain about. Here are the main things people generally complain about:

    - RNG based progression

    - Fair Fight

    - being forced to run alts in order to progress

    - nothing to do in this game for the majority of the time

    - the endgame only consisting of 2-3 things

    Up until now they only addressed less than half of the main problems people complain about (and one of even that only partially). Some of these issues have the same root cause but people asking for difficult content to be trivialised are generally in the minority (people who are defending already existing game design which aims to trivialise difficult content however are not) which usually comes from them not understanding that they're just trying to fight a symptom and not the problem itself.
  • NahoNaho
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    edited 5:54AM April 26, 2019
    IllIIl wrote: »
    Naho wrote: »
    90% of the "Feedback" were about making the progression easier

    More like 5% were actually asking about lowering the difficulty of the content beyond what was originally intended. Simply removing RNG from the equation by itself doesn't change the difficulty of the content in question. If anything you can say that they were asking for progression to become less tedious but that's about it. Now there is a problem with linking content which is intended to be difficult with other content which sole purpose it is to trivialize it but that's not something I've seen anyone complain about. Here are the main things people generally complain about:

    - RNG based progression

    - Fair Fight

    - being forced to run alts in order to progress

    - nothing to do in this game for the majority of the time

    - the endgame only consisting of 2-3 things

    Up until now whey only addressed less than half of the main problems people complain about (and one of even that only partially). Some of these issues have the same root cause but people asking for difficult content to be trivialised are generally in the minority (people who are defending already existing game design which aims to trivialise difficult content however are not) which usually comes from them not understanding that they're just trying to fight a symptom and not the problem itself.

    Almost everything you just said is related to make stuff "easier" because it was "too hard" for them to do/face all of that ... And yes simply removing the Rng , their progression would be easier as the max stat you would want to afk brainded facetank everything in order to not or barely give any effort, you could get them in no time. Because if you didn't know, what they were calling "progression" was toward the BiS gear with perfect stats.

    Ppl were mostly complaining about the Rng than everything else. There were stuff to do beside raid. They were just focused on the progression only don't get me wrong.

    Having to run alts they complain about it . Nexon changed it so they wouldn't have to run alt anymore, they complain because Nexon made alts useless.

    They wanted to remove fairfight because they found boring the fact that they couldn't one shot bosses. I mean yeah old content, must be one shot when i have gear.

    The endgame only consist in 2-3 things obviously, we didn't have at that time the content we should have gotten, since the game was just 3-4 months old? Ppl were expecting the dev to change an entire game in 3 months like ... what?

    The way Ms2 was advertised, i don't even think there should have been anything to try hard in a 1st place.
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    edited 7:41AM April 26, 2019
    Naho wrote: »
    Almost everything you just said is related to make stuff "easier" because it was "too hard" for them to do/face all of that ...

    None of the things I bought up "makes stuff easier" by itself, content which is designed to be difficult for a certain level range should never be easy with the gear of said level range. Getting Legendary +15 gear should have never been the reward for the raids, it should have been part of the entry requirements. People ask for raids to be coupled with game elements which completely trivialise them and then they start complaining when the raids start getting to easy because of it. Yeah well no s**t of course it's getting to easy, it's almost as if the content isn't balanced around +15 legendary gear.


    Naho wrote: »
    Nexon changed it so they wouldn't have to run alt anymore

    Nexon hasn't changed s**t in this regard. You still have to run alts for materials and Mesos just like before...


    Naho wrote: »
    They wanted to remove fairfight because they found boring the fact that they couldn't one shot bosses. I mean yeah old content, must be one shot when i have gear.

    That's the whole point of linear gear progression, to trivialize content.
  • NahoNaho
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    edited 6:12AM April 26, 2019
    IllIIl wrote: »
    Naho wrote: »
    Almost everything you just said is related to make stuff "easier" because it was "too hard" for them to do/face all of that ...

    None of the things I bought up "makes stuff easier" by itself, content which is designed to be difficult for a certain level range should never be easy with the gear of said level range. Getting Legendary +15 gear should have never been the reward for the raids, it should have been part of the entry requirements. People ask for raids to be coupled with game elements which completely trivialise them and then they start complaining when the raids start getting to easy because of it. Yeah well no s**t of course it's getting to easy, it's almost as if the content isn't balanced around +15 legendary gear.


    Naho wrote: »

    Almost everything you just said is related to make stuff "easier" because it was "too hard" for them to do/face all of that ... And yes simply removing the Rng , their progression would be easier as the max stat you would want to afk brainded facetank everything in order to not or barely give any effort, you could get them in no time. Because if you didn't know, what they were calling "progression" was toward the BiS gear with perfect stats.

    I wasn't talking anywhere about nerfing the "content" itself, as barely anyone cared about the difficulties since they were easy to begin with.
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    Naho wrote: »
    I wasn't talking anywhere about nerfing the "content" itself, as barely anyone cared about the difficulties since they were easy to begin with.

    As I said before: making the grind less tedious doesn't make it easier, it makes it less tedious. That's it. There is no change in difficulty by simply reducing the time it takes to do the same thing over and over aggain.
  • NahoNaho
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    edited 6:22AM April 26, 2019
    IllIIl wrote: »
    Naho wrote: »
    I wasn't talking anywhere about nerfing the "content" itself, as barely anyone cared about the difficulties since they were easy to begin with.

    As I said before: making the grind less tedious doesn't make it easier, it makes it less tedious. That's it. There is no change in difficulty by simply reducing the time it takes to do the same thing over and over aggain.

    When the difficulty is in the fact that it is tedious, yes it does. Or atleast for them ..
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    edited 6:26AM April 26, 2019
    Naho wrote: »
    When the difficulty is in the fact that it is tedious, yes it does. Or atleast for them ..

    Except like you said:

    Naho wrote: »
    barely anyone cared about the difficulties since they were easy to begin with.