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What's really wrong with this game?

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  • NovuhzNovuhz
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    edited 7:26AM March 21, 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    LuminaEdge wrote: »
    I mean... what MMOs do actually have a combat system that push the limits?

    FF14 is basically manage your resources and maintain your rotations with a steady global cooldown. Tank Job in that game however is WAY more complex, ill give it that. You still need to run around certain danger attacks before continuing rotations/resource management

    Tera is basically the same, possibly even worse because most classes have uncancelable attack animations where if you time your attack wrong you're punished for it.

    The best MMO combat i ever played was Blade and Soul. Blade Dancer was all about chaining skills with the correct passive effects and timing I-frames through certain attacks and coordinating knockdowns for best effect. All while reacting to boss attack patterns.

    Aside from that... what you described is pretty much standard MMO fare. Spam damage, dodge the big bad attack, keep up heals, know when to hang close to the tank. Its not far beyond the standard MMO like BnS, aside from a few things being dumbed down such as the role of Knight... its also not far behind in my book.

    Basically anything with more diversity is better really, e.g. making defense more important and introducing ideas such as tanking and keeping aggro. Each skill should serve some higher purpose and be useful in its own way rather than maximizing DPS.

    they first have to make defense even good to begin with cause right now 2-3k defense feel like paper

    ummm try doing fortress rumbles with 2k defense and then try doing it with 3k or 3.5k defense.

    Also having +3k defense you are able to avoid getting one shotted from some boss abilities if you get hit.

    Defense does more than you think.
  • facefacefaceface
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    Novuhz wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    LuminaEdge wrote: »
    I mean... what MMOs do actually have a combat system that push the limits?

    FF14 is basically manage your resources and maintain your rotations with a steady global cooldown. Tank Job in that game however is WAY more complex, ill give it that. You still need to run around certain danger attacks before continuing rotations/resource management

    Tera is basically the same, possibly even worse because most classes have uncancelable attack animations where if you time your attack wrong you're punished for it.

    The best MMO combat i ever played was Blade and Soul. Blade Dancer was all about chaining skills with the correct passive effects and timing I-frames through certain attacks and coordinating knockdowns for best effect. All while reacting to boss attack patterns.

    Aside from that... what you described is pretty much standard MMO fare. Spam damage, dodge the big bad attack, keep up heals, know when to hang close to the tank. Its not far beyond the standard MMO like BnS, aside from a few things being dumbed down such as the role of Knight... its also not far behind in my book.

    Basically anything with more diversity is better really, e.g. making defense more important and introducing ideas such as tanking and keeping aggro. Each skill should serve some higher purpose and be useful in its own way rather than maximizing DPS.

    they first have to make defense even good to begin with cause right now 2-3k defense feel like paper

    ummm try doing fortress rumbles with 2k defense and then try doing it with 3k or 3.5k defense.

    Also having +3k defense you are able to avoid getting one shotted from some boss abilities if you get hit.

    Defense does more than you think.

    it doesn't make a diff with FF, i gained plenty of def swapping from a epic +0 to fully legendary +0 and honestly they hit the same numbers. Hp is more important, swap to all 3 epic acc gives a lot of hp, 5piece legendary set effect, pop in those hp tonics, u should have around 5.6k hp by then, which should help you survive regular atts. You still get 1 shot if u get hit at later phases doe so defense is not really important.
  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
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    Novuhz wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    LuminaEdge wrote: »
    I mean... what MMOs do actually have a combat system that push the limits?

    FF14 is basically manage your resources and maintain your rotations with a steady global cooldown. Tank Job in that game however is WAY more complex, ill give it that. You still need to run around certain danger attacks before continuing rotations/resource management

    Tera is basically the same, possibly even worse because most classes have uncancelable attack animations where if you time your attack wrong you're punished for it.

    The best MMO combat i ever played was Blade and Soul. Blade Dancer was all about chaining skills with the correct passive effects and timing I-frames through certain attacks and coordinating knockdowns for best effect. All while reacting to boss attack patterns.

    Aside from that... what you described is pretty much standard MMO fare. Spam damage, dodge the big bad attack, keep up heals, know when to hang close to the tank. Its not far beyond the standard MMO like BnS, aside from a few things being dumbed down such as the role of Knight... its also not far behind in my book.

    Basically anything with more diversity is better really, e.g. making defense more important and introducing ideas such as tanking and keeping aggro. Each skill should serve some higher purpose and be useful in its own way rather than maximizing DPS.

    they first have to make defense even good to begin with cause right now 2-3k defense feel like paper

    ummm try doing fortress rumbles with 2k defense and then try doing it with 3k or 3.5k defense.

    Also having +3k defense you are able to avoid getting one shotted from some boss abilities if you get hit.

    Defense does more than you think.

    now try a different game where defense actually really helps you truly survive. I don't think surviving with 1hp after moving up some 1ks=defense is doing it's job..sorry no. you also get 5k+ hp nearly 6k hp so no it's not the defense more than likely it's the hp pool
  • NovuhzNovuhz
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    edited 11:06AM March 21, 2019
    faceface wrote: »
    Novuhz wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    LuminaEdge wrote: »
    I mean... what MMOs do actually have a combat system that push the limits?

    FF14 is basically manage your resources and maintain your rotations with a steady global cooldown. Tank Job in that game however is WAY more complex, ill give it that. You still need to run around certain danger attacks before continuing rotations/resource management

    Tera is basically the same, possibly even worse because most classes have uncancelable attack animations where if you time your attack wrong you're punished for it.

    The best MMO combat i ever played was Blade and Soul. Blade Dancer was all about chaining skills with the correct passive effects and timing I-frames through certain attacks and coordinating knockdowns for best effect. All while reacting to boss attack patterns.

    Aside from that... what you described is pretty much standard MMO fare. Spam damage, dodge the big bad attack, keep up heals, know when to hang close to the tank. Its not far beyond the standard MMO like BnS, aside from a few things being dumbed down such as the role of Knight... its also not far behind in my book.

    Basically anything with more diversity is better really, e.g. making defense more important and introducing ideas such as tanking and keeping aggro. Each skill should serve some higher purpose and be useful in its own way rather than maximizing DPS.

    they first have to make defense even good to begin with cause right now 2-3k defense feel like paper

    ummm try doing fortress rumbles with 2k defense and then try doing it with 3k or 3.5k defense.

    Also having +3k defense you are able to avoid getting one shotted from some boss abilities if you get hit.

    Defense does more than you think.

    it doesn't make a diff with FF, i gained plenty of def swapping from a epic +0 to fully legendary +0 and honestly they hit the same numbers. Hp is more important, swap to all 3 epic acc gives a lot of hp, 5piece legendary set effect, pop in those hp tonics, u should have around 5.6k hp by then, which should help you survive regular atts. You still get 1 shot if u get hit at later phases doe so defense is not really important.

    It does make a big difference, also FF doesn't do anything about your defence.

    Here's a picture of damage difference with different defense values taking damage from the same attack (his double swing attack before the 3rd hit):

    45kuMiG.png

    Also tested on Veliche in Fortress Rumble and the difference between 2k to 3k was pretty big but from 3k to 4k is not as big as 2k to 3k because of diminishing returns but still quite the difference. I can post pictures of veliche 2k vs 3k vs 4k if you want.


    now try a different game where defense actually really helps you truly survive. I don't think surviving with 1hp after moving up some 1ks=defense is doing it's job..sorry no. you also get 5k+ hp nearly 6k hp so no it's not the defense more than likely it's the hp pool

    So you were saying? Honestly post real information not just talk.
  • SneebesSneebes
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    edited 8:23AM March 21, 2019
    Novuhz wrote: »
    45kuMiG.png

    Also tested on Veliche in Fortress Rumble and the difference between 2k to 3k was pretty big but from 3k to 4k is not as big as 2k to 3k because of diminishing returns but still quite the difference. I can post pictures of veliche 2k vs 3k vs 4k if you want.

    Hmm idk that 25% less dmg from 3k def to 4k def sure the number change may not seem like a lot but the % difference in that dmg taken sure the hell is. Behonest tho would be nice to know what the actual dmg mitigation system in place was never liked games that give me def 500. Well wtf is def 500 is that 500 less dmg, is that what used in some formula to calculate % mitigation and so wtf is that formula.

    Perfect example i can think of is AA they tell you 5k def than the actual amount of % dmg it mitigates right next too it.
  • NovuhzNovuhz
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    edited 8:43AM March 21, 2019
    Sneebes wrote: »
    Hmm idk that 25% less dmg from 3k def to 4k def sure the number change may not seem like a lot but the % difference in that dmg taken sure the hell is. Behonest tho would be nice to know what the actual dmg mitigation system in place was never liked games that give me def 500. Well wtf is def 500 is that 500 less dmg, is that what used in some formula to calculate % mitigation and so wtf is that formula.

    Perfect example i can think of is AA they tell you 5k def than the actual amount of % dmg it mitigates right next too it.

    I know right, honestly it sucks that so much info is hidden and we are like what do this numbers even mean.

    I don't know the reason for all the decisions in hidding what x does, but one of the reasons is your stats do different depending the lvl of the enemy you are fighting and not only that but things like accuracy boss's have different values of evade stat on them. So you need more accuracy for infernog compared to cdev.

    Extreme example of lvl difference, let's just say 3k defense reduces damage by 90% vs a boss lvl 50 now vs a boss lvl 70 it might only reduce it's damage by 40%.

    Some games I played in the past actually showed what some stats do like for example that your hit rate/accuracy is 95% vs enemies of the same lvl as you and 100% vs enemies 1 level below you and 80% hit rate vs enemies 1 lvl higher.

    You can even test this accuracy thing vs a Training dummy lvl 50. If you try hitting it with a lvl 2 or whatever character you are gonna miss all attacks.

  • ArurauneAruraune
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    edited 9:48AM March 21, 2019
    they first have to make defense even good to begin with cause right now 2-3k defense feel like paper

    But 2-3k defense is pretty much like paper, it's really low. Try to aim for at least 4.3k+ defense and you'll see HUGE differences.
    Perfect example i can think of is AA they tell you 5k def than the actual amount of % dmg it mitigates right next too it.

    Out of curiosity, how that game deals with monsters having different attack powers? Is the % based on each target?
  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
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    Novuhz wrote: »
    faceface wrote: »
    Novuhz wrote: »
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    LuminaEdge wrote: »
    I mean... what MMOs do actually have a combat system that push the limits?

    FF14 is basically manage your resources and maintain your rotations with a steady global cooldown. Tank Job in that game however is WAY more complex, ill give it that. You still need to run around certain danger attacks before continuing rotations/resource management

    Tera is basically the same, possibly even worse because most classes have uncancelable attack animations where if you time your attack wrong you're punished for it.

    The best MMO combat i ever played was Blade and Soul. Blade Dancer was all about chaining skills with the correct passive effects and timing I-frames through certain attacks and coordinating knockdowns for best effect. All while reacting to boss attack patterns.

    Aside from that... what you described is pretty much standard MMO fare. Spam damage, dodge the big bad attack, keep up heals, know when to hang close to the tank. Its not far beyond the standard MMO like BnS, aside from a few things being dumbed down such as the role of Knight... its also not far behind in my book.

    Basically anything with more diversity is better really, e.g. making defense more important and introducing ideas such as tanking and keeping aggro. Each skill should serve some higher purpose and be useful in its own way rather than maximizing DPS.

    they first have to make defense even good to begin with cause right now 2-3k defense feel like paper

    ummm try doing fortress rumbles with 2k defense and then try doing it with 3k or 3.5k defense.

    Also having +3k defense you are able to avoid getting one shotted from some boss abilities if you get hit.

    Defense does more than you think.

    it doesn't make a diff with FF, i gained plenty of def swapping from a epic +0 to fully legendary +0 and honestly they hit the same numbers. Hp is more important, swap to all 3 epic acc gives a lot of hp, 5piece legendary set effect, pop in those hp tonics, u should have around 5.6k hp by then, which should help you survive regular atts. You still get 1 shot if u get hit at later phases doe so defense is not really important.

    It does make a big difference, also FF doesn't do anything about your defence.

    Here's a picture of damage difference with different defense values taking damage from the same attack (his double swing attack before the 3rd hit):

    45kuMiG.png

    Also tested on Veliche in Fortress Rumble and the difference between 2k to 3k was pretty big but from 3k to 4k is not as big as 2k to 3k because of diminishing returns but still quite the difference. I can post pictures of veliche 2k vs 3k vs 4k if you want.


    now try a different game where defense actually really helps you truly survive. I don't think surviving with 1hp after moving up some 1ks=defense is doing it's job..sorry no. you also get 5k+ hp nearly 6k hp so no it's not the defense more than likely it's the hp pool

    So you were saying? Honestly post real information not just talk.

    I don't have to post anything, fyi the boss hits different numbers even with same defense so one them pictures are inaccurate and two The defense in this game is trash that's my point you really think 20-50 reduce is a big number? if you need 7k defense to actually SURVIVE hits then yes the defense here is trash.
    Bulbasaur
  • NovuhzNovuhz
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    edited 11:57AM March 21, 2019

    I don't have to post anything, fyi the boss hits different numbers even with same defense so one them pictures are inaccurate and two The defense in this game is trash that's my point you really think 20-50 reduce is a big number? if you need 7k defense to actually SURVIVE hits then yes the defense here is trash.

    Yes the boss hits different numbers, but the margin is very small between his hits. (same abilitie)

    Plus I only compared when he used the same abilitie. So let's say I took a picture where it says he did 500 in one of the hits, that means his hits are around that number like say 480 to 520, not 500 to 800. It depends on how much defense you have, the more defense the lower the difference between hits.

    It's funny even with pictures and facts these people don't want to move away from their 'misinformation opinion'.

    Define survive. Take 0 damage? Ignore some of boss mechanics when you should have dodged? Do you want enough defense where you can just facetank afk kill boss? lol please

    The fact is defense does more than you think even proven with pictures and have fun doing Infernog/cPap with low defense.

    Here's a video showing damage difference (look only at the double swing attacks):

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rS_rn1P27vRXvQtQdjyMo59wOICjCIRf/view

  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
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    edited 12:08PM March 21, 2019
    Novuhz wrote: »

    I don't have to post anything, fyi the boss hits different numbers even with same defense so one them pictures are inaccurate and two The defense in this game is trash that's my point you really think 20-50 reduce is a big number? if you need 7k defense to actually SURVIVE hits then yes the defense here is trash.

    Yes the boss hits different numbers, but the margin is very small between his hits. (same abilitie)

    Plus I only compared when he used the same abilitie. So let's say I took a picture where it says he did 500 in one of the hits, that means his hits are around that number like say 480 to 520, not 500 to 800. It depends on how much defense you have, the more defense the lower the difference between hits.

    It's funny even with pictures and facts these people don't want to move away from their 'misinformation opinion'.

    Define survive. Take 0 damage? Ignore some of boss mechanics when you should have dodged? Do you want enough defense where you can just facetank afk kill boss? lol please

    The fact is defense does more than you think even proven with pictures and have fun doing Infernog/cPap with low defense.

    Here's a video showing damage difference (look only at the double swing attacks):

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rS_rn1P27vRXvQtQdjyMo59wOICjCIRf/view

    misinformation in your eyes because you clearly never played a game where defense is an useful stat. here it is not, it is a trash stat. if iam higher and stronger than a map nah it shouldnt be doing dmg on me period. dodge? you mean the skill that has no iframes? u mean the skill that auto targets monsters? u mean the skill with a hitbox that don't travel with you? that dodge? get real, that is not a dodge. won't even talk about how the tank in this game is no true tank, knights die just as easy as anyone else without bubble skill. but yeah believe and think what you wish. can 1shot a knight easy what a tank.
    Bulbasaur
  • SneebesSneebes
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    Not sure why your calling def a completely trash state sure most attacks will 1-2 shot you but that also because most of these attacks are suppose to be dodged or a mechanic is in place that the player should beware of I really haven't see any boss were his normal attack 1 shots me unless i remove half my armor. In the end though def stats isn't the issue with knights or will it every be the issue the issue will be zero abilities to generate aggro and zero piece of gear that actual can differentiate a player between a DPS or tank build. As it is right now their no such think as sacrificing dmg power for def power or def power for dmg power I mean unless you want to have multiple sets of armor per dmg type but at that point you need too have run the same dungeons billions of times.
    ArurauneNovuhz
  • OlujiwanOlujiwan
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    Defense has diminishing returns. There was a discussion about defense in more detail that I can't seem to find anymore, but it does affect survivability significantly up to a certain point. I like how it currently works because of how MS1 made it obsolete. Even +15 Leg Weapon have to be mindful of mechanics and that's how it should be.

    For those who are new to the concept: Diminishing Returns simplified; the more you stack a certain stat, the less valuable(impactful) it becomes. A lot of games have DR implemented to make sure that the content stays challenging. A good example in MS2 is chaos raids. When CDEV first released our gear was not nearly good enough to ignore certain boss mechanics, but with enchanted legendary gear you can afford to make mistakes.

    Personally, I think MS2 holds up pretty good in terms of stat value. From defensive stats to offensive stats; they make a huge difference. Whether they are properly distributed among items or classes is a different discussion.
    NovuhzAruraune
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    edited 10:04PM March 21, 2019
    Like @GarlicBread said, the defense stat is trash. The defense stat simply by having an effect doesn't necessarily imply that it's useful, rather it's not useful because of how this game is set up. Let's illustrate this using a few examples.

    Say I complete the Hard Dungeon grind and move on to Chaos Raids. With a +15 weapon and about 2k defense, I get 1 shotted by CDev and CMoc. So if I'm a new player I get screwed over unless I practice dodging all of the boss' attacks. Thus this game revolves more around maneuvering and dodging than actual defense and requires the player to practice at least a few times to learn all the boss' attacks. Moreover because of this setup, there is no real strategy involved; learning to dodge certain attacks is like building muscle memory, akin to learning how to play a piano (but much more simple obviously). After you master the ability to dodge certain attacks, the gameplay becomes a thoughtless process and turns into a mundane, never ending grind.

    Suppose I get my defense to 4k+. Then what? Maybe I can survive the laser beam for CDev for example, I don't know as I don't have 4k+ defense but suppose I can with 4k defense. What happens after I reach the 4k+ defense milestone? The answer is I likely will never have to pay attention to the defense stat again seeing as I can now survive a hit, after which the only use of the defense stat is to serve as a binary ("do you have enough defense to survive a hit?") threshold akin to passing a background check. Moreover, in order to reach the 4k+ milestone, I will have to go through the Chaos Raids and die from getting 1 shotted a few times, as I need the armor from those Raids, by which time I will likely have memorized all the ways of dodging the main attacks and thus wouldn't have a need for the extra defense.

    Let's examine a scenario where defense does matter significantly. In such a game, the player would likely be able to click and lock onto a target to attack it. If the player is a tank, they would likely have a taunt skill to maintain aggro after which the target will momentarily lock onto the tank. The target will continuously attack the tank and lower the tank's HP at a rate of x damage per second for normal attacks (sprinkle some special attacks in), where this value is dependent on the total defense of the tank. If the tank cannot self heal at a rate that is equal to or exceeds the rate of damage taken, the tank will need to use special skills to delay getting killed, or ask for a support, or utilize any other mechanic that allows them to survive, in order to survive. This game doesn't play like that. The movement is dictated by arrow keys coupled with the class dash skill. There is no lock on mechanism that requires the player to run to and face the target to attack it (for example you can hit a boss then dash behind it and hit again; movement and attack spamming aren't restricted in any sense), and there is no lock on mechanism from the target to a player. In addition to the bosses attacking rather slowly, this plays into the idea that this game is more focused on dodging rather than actual defense.
  • SneebesSneebes
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    edited 12:33PM March 22, 2019
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    Like @GarlicBread said, the defense stat is trash. The defense stat simply by having an effect doesn't necessarily imply that it's useful, rather it's not useful because of how this game is set up. Let's illustrate this using a few examples.

    Say I complete the Hard Dungeon grind and move on to Chaos Raids. With a +15 weapon and about 2k defense, I get 1 shotted by CDev and CMoc. So if I'm a new player I get screwed over unless I practice dodging all of the boss' attacks. Thus this game revolves more around maneuvering and dodging than actual defense and requires the player to practice at least a few times to learn all the boss' attacks. Moreover because of this setup, there is no real strategy involved; learning to dodge certain attacks is like building muscle memory, akin to learning how to play a piano (but much more simple obviously). After you master the ability to dodge certain attacks, the gameplay becomes a thoughtless process and turns into a mundane, never ending grind.

    Suppose I get my defense to 4k+. Then what? Maybe I can survive the laser beam for CDev for example, I don't know as I don't have 4k+ defense but suppose I can with 4k defense. What happens after I reach the 4k+ defense milestone? The answer is I likely will never have to pay attention to the defense stat again seeing as I can now survive a hit, after which the only use of the defense stat is to serve as a binary ("do you have enough defense to survive a hit?") threshold akin to passing a background check. Moreover, in order to reach the 4k+ milestone, I will have to go through the Chaos Raids and die from getting 1 shotted a few times, as I need the armor from those Raids, by which time I will likely have memorized all the ways of dodging the main attacks and thus wouldn't have a need for the extra defense.

    Let's examine a scenario where defense does matter significantly. In such a game, the player would likely be able to click and lock onto a target to attack it. If the player is a tank, they would likely have a taunt skill to maintain aggro after which the target will momentarily lock onto the tank. The target will continuously attack the tank and lower the tank's HP at a rate of x damage per second for normal attacks (sprinkle some special attacks in), where this value is dependent on the total defense of the tank. If the tank cannot self heal at a rate that is equal to or exceeds the rate of damage taken, the tank will need to use special skills to delay getting killed, or ask for a support, or utilize any other mechanic that allows them to survive, in order to survive. This game doesn't play like that. The movement is dictated by arrow keys coupled with the class dash skill. There is no lock on mechanism that requires the player to run to and face the target to attack it (for example you can hit a boss then dash behind it and hit again; movement and attack spamming aren't restricted in any sense), and there is no lock on mechanism from the target to a player. In addition to the bosses attacking rather slowly, this plays into the idea that this game is more focused on dodging rather than actual defense.

    I don't even understand what you asking for your saying def stats are useless because all it does is reduce the dmg you take. I mean is there really any other use for def than reducing received dmg I'm very confused on what your actual saying here. Your also saying your being one shot in raid dungeons with 2k def well no **** man 2k is what you should be around for hard dungeons not raids if your doing raids with 2k def than something wrong here. Also it doesn't matter how much def you have when it comes to boss mechanics this goes back too the time i played ESO and some ******s would complain about how the healer being useless because he can't heal through the AOE fire there ignoring and just standing it that doing 40-60% of their HP per tick. An beside being tanky isn't just based on how much def stats you can stack on your toon it also has to do with mechanics like blocking or block rates as what MS 2 uses and utility skills that increase def at the cost of movement speed or dmg (something MS 2 is very much lacking beside one skill knight has that could be buffed a bit). Maybe if they every decide to add taunting into the game they could also add armor that increases block rate as well.
  • ArurauneAruraune
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    edited 5:05PM March 22, 2019
    If I could say, try to treat Defense is this game as something you get more of if you can but while not trading for other stats.

    It allows you to increase your damage by tanking hits instead of dodging. Having higher defense wouldn't make the current Raids a "tank everything", it takes practice to manage your HP and how many hits you can tank and good positioning to receive heals from the Priest or other sources. It's especially harder to take advantage of this while wearing Kandura's Pendant.

    Simply speaking, it's useful to enhance your armors for the min-maxing mindset of dealing more damage by managing your own HP.

    It could feel a bit controversial and the normal would be to think of defense as purely defensive thing, but you might as well utilize its advantage to increase your DPS, and after reaching 4.7k defense without buffs I must say, it's quite nice and give a really visible advantage compared to having almost no defense at all.

    To be honest, it's mostly useful on things that doesn't actually "hit kills or not". It shines better on boss attacks that deals smaller amount of damage since that means you can optimize your damage uptime. For things that would still hit you for 70-80%+ of your health it's just better to dodge.

    As for mechanics, having higher defense will also allow you to do cannons on Infernog during heal check far better than others. For instance, as a Heavy Gunner with 6k+ defense (w/o Panic proc) it's now possible to do the cannons part on the heal check solo, relying only on Med Kit and Healing Aura consumables, taking only ~500 damage ticks per hit while some others might take over 1k damage per tick.
  • BulbasaurBulbasaur
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    edited 6:24AM March 23, 2019
    Sneebes wrote: »
    I don't even understand what you asking for your saying def stats are useless because all it does is reduce the dmg you take. I mean is there really any other use for def than reducing received dmg I'm very confused on what your actual saying here. Your also saying your being one shot in raid dungeons with 2k def well no **** man 2k is what you should be around for hard dungeons not raids if your doing raids with 2k def than something wrong here. Also it doesn't matter how much def you have when it comes to boss mechanics this goes back too the time i played ESO and some ******s would complain about how the healer being useless because he can't heal through the AOE fire there ignoring and just standing it that doing 40-60% of their HP per tick. An beside being tanky isn't just based on how much def stats you can stack on your toon it also has to do with mechanics like blocking or block rates as what MS 2 uses and utility skills that increase def at the cost of movement speed or dmg (something MS 2 is very much lacking beside one skill knight has that could be buffed a bit). Maybe if they every decide to add taunting into the game they could also add armor that increases block rate as well.

    That's exactly what defense should do. It's pretty simple really, this game is more about dodging than actual defense. There is no real constant pressure to monitor your HP reduction rate because you don't have enough defense.

    Rather than thinking "My HP is dropping too fast, I wish I had more defense" or "My HP is constantly dropping quite quickly but I can probably survive by potting" or "My HP is dropping slowing thankfully because I have tons of defense", this game makes you think more along the lines of "how can I dodge this 1-2 shot hit?" after which defense becomes pretty useless once you know how to doge the attacks.

    2k defense is around the recommended for CDev and CMoc. Getting all Epic armor to +10 gets you to around 2.5k defense as a knight or berserker.
    GarlicBread
  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,035
    Posts: 273
    Member
    Bulbasaur wrote: »
    Sneebes wrote: »
    I don't even understand what you asking for your saying def stats are useless because all it does is reduce the dmg you take. I mean is there really any other use for def than reducing received dmg I'm very confused on what your actual saying here. Your also saying your being one shot in raid dungeons with 2k def well no **** man 2k is what you should be around for hard dungeons not raids if your doing raids with 2k def than something wrong here. Also it doesn't matter how much def you have when it comes to boss mechanics this goes back too the time i played ESO and some ******s would complain about how the healer being useless because he can't heal through the AOE fire there ignoring and just standing it that doing 40-60% of their HP per tick. An beside being tanky isn't just based on how much def stats you can stack on your toon it also has to do with mechanics like blocking or block rates as what MS 2 uses and utility skills that increase def at the cost of movement speed or dmg (something MS 2 is very much lacking beside one skill knight has that could be buffed a bit). Maybe if they every decide to add taunting into the game they could also add armor that increases block rate as well.

    That's exactly what defense should do. It's pretty simple really, this game is more about dodging than actual defense. There is no real constant pressure to monitor your HP reduction rate because you don't have enough defense.

    Rather than thinking "My HP is dropping too fast, I wish I had more defense" or "My HP is constantly dropping quite quickly but I can probably survive by potting" or "My HP is dropping slowing thankfully because I have tons of defense", this game makes you think more along the lines of "how can I dodge this 1-2 shot hit?" after which defense becomes pretty useless once you know how to doge the attacks.

    2k defense is around the recommended for CDev and CMoc. Getting all Epic armor to +10 gets you to around 2.5k defense as a knight or berserker.

    you right about the game being ''dodge or die'' based. problem with that is the ''dodge'' skill it's self isn't exactly good, some characters dash is auto aim and some can't pass through targets [runeblade] and all classes here dash has no iframes [except strikers]. we only have 1 true defense if it was like elsword where you have 3 lines of different defense stats which reduce damage you take by alot that be much better than what we have right now. if i use a character that has highest defense in the game and still get 1shot...that ain't fun to me or normal, might as well just reroll to priest then.
  • SneebesSneebes
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,165
    Posts: 42
    Member
    edited 9:05AM March 23, 2019
    If i use a character that has highest defense in the game and still get 1shot...that ain't fun to me or normal, might as well just reroll to priest then.
    Here your flaw your assuming knight is the tankiest class which is not the case nothing is designed to make him tanky his armor gives the same def as any other class. Now I'm not saying he shouldn't feel tanky but as the games build right now a berserk is just as tanky as a knight. And it like i stated before the lack of gear which can differentiate someone from being a tank or a dps and the lack of utility skills that actual make the knight more survivable than other classes is the reason for this and because their no taunting mechanic in place there also no reward for specing into the few skills that increase def that only take away from your dps power. Even as i main berserk i completely ignore the few skills i have that increase my def because doing so takes away from my DPS and doesn't benefit my team just me.
  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,035
    Posts: 273
    Member
    edited 12:14PM March 23, 2019
    Sneebes wrote: »
    If i use a character that has highest defense in the game and still get 1shot...that ain't fun to me or normal, might as well just reroll to priest then.
    Here your flaw your assuming knight is the tankiest class which is not the case nothing is designed to make him tanky his armor gives the same def as any other class. Now I'm not saying he shouldn't feel tanky but as the games build right now a berserk is just as tanky as a knight. And it like i stated before the lack of gear which can differentiate someone from being a tank or a dps and the lack of utility skills that actual make the knight more survivable than other classes is the reason for this and because their no taunting mechanic in place there also no reward for specing into the few skills that increase def that only take away from your dps power. Even as i main berserk i completely ignore the few skills i have that increase my def because doing so takes away from my DPS and doesn't benefit my team just me.

    heres your problem you are assuming i main a knight or was even refering to a knight, i didn't mention a single class in that post defense wise. I SAID HIGHEST DEFENSE CHARACTER IN THE GAME.
  • SneebesSneebes
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,165
    Posts: 42
    Member
    edited 2:09PM March 23, 2019
    heres your problem you are assuming i main a knight or was even refering to a knight, i didn't mention a single class in that post defense wise. I SAID HIGHEST DEFENSE CHARACTER IN THE GAME.
    Now your just trying to be a troll the fact still stand that I'm right being a troll doesn't make me less right kid.
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