Check out the patch notes for the v17 Precursor Update here: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/53778/precursor-update-v17

I Prophesied MS2's Economic Death

StrobeStrobe
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in General Chat
For anyone that is interested in understanding entirely why MS2 died, here is the post where I prophesied why this game would collapse because of a lack of fail-safes in the economy: forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/comment/84797/#Comment_84797

I also made a thread going further into this topic here: forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/34770/add-exclusive-tradeable-cosmetics

My insights can be applied to any new MMO that you might see in the future. I thought I should post this just in case some people do not fully comprehend what happened to this game. Let me be clear, this game did not collapse because it is a "crappy" game. This game died because Nexon willfully allowed the economy implode. I also find it odd that the majority stakeholder of Nexon, Kim Jung-ju, is now selling off the company after this game was maliciously released to a global audience.

Whatever the reasoning, I do not care. Just remember that MMOs are inseparably tied to economic reality.
Slimeface

Comments

  • StrobeStrobe
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    edited 12:24AM February 22, 2019
    I should add those posts were made on June 13th &14th, 2018, so roughly four months before release. Not that Nexon would have listened to me, but to show you that I knew what would happen far in advance.
  • LuminaEdgeLuminaEdge
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    I'm also heavily invested into MS2's Economic health and I actually think the economy is going to die for a different reason. The lack of time investment value items that CANNOT be botted or multi-boxed.

    The accessibility of this game for future new players hinges on them being able to leverage something that takes time from the player, has ingame value but has a speed cap on its production while being bot resistant.

    for MOST games, crafting serves this purpose, because in most games, you can sell items made from crafting but it takes time to build up levels necessary to get to the market value items. Bots usually don't last long enough to achieve this, and so in these other games, Crafting becomes the go to for how to make money and enter the games economy.

    MS2 suffers from EXTREMELY limited sellable crafting items and its downright idiotic.

    Whats TRULY going to kill MS2 is when fair fight is removed and new players no longer have anything of value to invest their time in once Fair fight removes the anti-bot cap and it becomes common place for less than legitimate players to run bots with their mains to farm Chaos Onyx, tanking the value of the only early game resource who's value was not effected by the power of higher level characters and immune to being tanked by mass botting.

    All that remains is getting lucky with rng, in the form of epic pets, or named purple epics. Savagery boxes were once an option but once Tradable ribbons happen its going to kill the market for them.

    This is a critical issue.

    Your concept of investment items is understandable, but i feel like its very new-player unfriendly for an economy to rely on time limited items, it creates "jump in" points for new players, so anyone who feels like they "missed their chance" is not likely to keep playing feeling like that.

    We need game/economic design that promotes player retention and i feel like thats not it. There's more than enough in the game to reward people who have been playing all along.

    once fair fight is removed and tradable ribbons kill savagery boxes, new players lose 2 reasonable time to meso investments and thats gonna make things a lot less accessible for them. Getting carried more easily isn't going to get them the meso they need to keep playing.
    Pkmdz
  • AyumíAyumí
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    Too many things that should be tradable are untradable.
    Too many things that should be account bound are character bound.

    Who's bright idea was it that when I fish... I don't keep the fish? I've never seen fishing in an online game I've played where I never get to keep the fish I caught.
    Whether it is to display, or to sell, or to use in cooking/crafting or whatever.
    AruraunePkmdzScarffy
  • fendrienfendrien
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    edited 9:10AM February 22, 2019
    You state the economy is dead as a fact, and you provide no reasonable insight into how this is the case. I get that you believe that "investment" items are the key to removing gold from circulation, but the problem is the gold isn't gone, it is simply transformed into another form that increases in value over time, until the point that someone either honestly, or dishonestly buys said item to use. I have a hard time believing that the sole solution to the economic situation can be solved by simply creating artificial investment sinks. WoW for instance anchored their currency against real money as a stabilizer in conjunction with gold sinks, investment pieces and conversion to their own currency that allowed purchasing in other games. The point I am making is that the problem is multi-factor and not a simple problem that can be solved through creating scarcity.

    If you notice Nexons plans, they will be creating a Meso Market which will allow for the establishment of a real money/Merit based economic infrastructure. This will ensure the value of the Meso never falls below what a reasonable person would expect in RL money/exchange. Additionally, this is the sole defense for demotivating gold traders since cash for Meso would exist and as such, the risk of account deletion (the next natural step) is more risky than just trading a player. The gold problem in WoW was out of control until they made the WoW Token. Nexon already has rare items in game such as the crowns, 3slot kanduras, certain BOE epics, new trader ribbon legendaries (soon), etc (few other super rares were removed but might come back, don't see why not).
  • StrobeStrobe
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    fendrien wrote: »
    You state the economy is dead as a fact, and you provide no reasonable insight into how this is the case. I get that you believe that "investment" items are the key to removing gold from circulation, but the problem is the gold isn't gone, it is simply transformed into another form that increases in value over time, until the point that someone either honestly, or dishonestly buys said item to use. I have a hard time believing that the sole solution to the economic situation can be solved by simply creating artificial investment sinks. WoW for instance anchored their currency against real money as a stabilizer in conjunction with gold sinks, investment pieces and conversion to their own currency that allowed purchasing in other games. The point I am making is that the problem is multi-factor and not a simple problem that can be solved through creating scarcity.

    If you notice Nexons plans, they will be creating a Meso Market which will allow for the establishment of a real money/Merit based economic infrastructure. This will ensure the value of the Meso never falls below what a reasonable person would expect in RL money/exchange. Additionally, this is the sole defense for demotivating gold traders since cash for Meso would exist and as such, the risk of account deletion (the next natural step) is more risky than just trading a player. The gold problem in WoW was out of control until they made the WoW Token. Nexon already has rare items in game such as the crowns, 3slot kanduras, certain BOE epics, new trader ribbon legendaries (soon), etc (few other super rares were removed but might come back, don't see why not).

    Money in real life also does not disappear when diversified into another asset. If you use the USD to buy some silver, your USD is taken out of the market economy for USD, but the silver does not just magically make this USD disappear. Your USD still exists just as much as your silver exists. Money can only disappear through excessive consumption by market participants, which MMOs and other videogames tend to not suffer from. It is actually the opposite case; lack of consumption permanently kills MMOs. Gold sinks are not a remedy to this market problem.

    Anyway, you bring up that Nexon is going to tie the USD to Meso with something similar to a "WoW Token" or GW2's in-game gold trading post. I do not really see why this needs to exist since you can just buy gold from Chinese botters. In a game where developers actually care enough to ban RMT like Runescape, then sure, I could see this being a viable method to insulate the economy from botters, but that is not the case with Nexon. I also personally would not take the world on my shoulders and attempt to combat Chinese botters. I would rather just collaborate with them for both their and my own economic benefit.
  • SlimefaceSlimeface
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    I agree, this game is dying.

    #1 issue is that alts must be eliminated completely. Because there are hard caps on each character, alts are being used to bypass the rules and destroy the economy because of items being interchangeable through inventory
  • ÄrtÄrt
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    I checked twitch 5 min before making this post and there was 3 people streaming, 5 viewers 2 viewers and 1 viewer.

    Decade old games have more viewers, no amount of new leafs is going to change it at this point.

  • AyumíAyumí
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    Ärt wrote: »
    I checked twitch 5 min before making this post and there was 3 people streaming, 5 viewers 2 viewers and 1 viewer.

    Decade old games have more viewers, no amount of new leafs is going to change it at this point.

    There's nothing worth streaming in the game though. I don't think streaming should matter.
    Then again, I'm probably bias here as I don't see why I would watch someone play an online game in general.
  • PinkFoxxyPinkFoxxy
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    can u guys just quit the game already?
    cocogummiebearr
  • fendrienfendrien
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    Strobe wrote: »
    Money in real life also does not disappear when diversified into another asset. If you use the USD to buy some silver, your USD is taken out of the market economy for USD, but the silver does not just magically make this USD disappear. Your USD still exists just as much as your silver exists. Money can only disappear through excessive consumption by market participants, which MMOs and other videogames tend to not suffer from. It is actually the opposite case; lack of consumption permanently kills MMOs. Gold sinks are not a remedy to this market problem.

    Anyway, you bring up that Nexon is going to tie the USD to Meso with something similar to a "WoW Token" or GW2's in-game gold trading post. I do not really see why this needs to exist since you can just buy gold from Chinese botters. In a game where developers actually care enough to ban RMT like Runescape, then sure, I could see this being a viable method to insulate the economy from botters, but that is not the case with Nexon. I also personally would not take the world on my shoulders and attempt to combat Chinese botters. I would rather just collaborate with them for both their and my own economic benefit.

    I will address the major points I saw in your response:
    Money, Silver and Consumption: MMOs are not Real Market economies, they are not even close. In a real market economy (US for instance) money is literally created out of thin air and tightly regulated, old money is removed, government debt is created, the total amount of currency is tightly controlled by the Federal Reserve. This game and MMOs in general have no such control and in theory an endless supply of Meso is being generated. Precious metals are a global investment across all economies, that is to say that any fiat currency can purchase it and its value is independent of a single countries monetary system. The Us was on a Gold standard before the creation of the federal reserve which created difficulties in regulating the market. Nothing in this game is independent the Meso and that is a problem. By creating a secondary backup currency (real money) they can base the value of the Meso on something outside of the game that is stabilized by comparison.

    Buying from cheaters:
    It is not ok to bot for gold, to buy botted gold or to support the companies who sell it. It is a risk to you personal finances, personal information, and potentially your account. To even suggest because this exists we have a safe secondary market is just plain wrong. Botters have the Meso because they flood the game with bots creating more and more money. If more orders come, they create even more. This is the exact opposite of market stabalization. The goal of a Merit Market is to facilitate the transfer from legitimate accounts to other legitimate accounts and to limit the necessity for bot farms.


  • AsukuraAsukura
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    I mean if it had a crappy economy and died because of it then that means it was a pretty crappy game. The economy was just one of the failures of the whole crappy design and management.