Check out the patch notes for the v17 Precursor Update here: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/53778/precursor-update-v17

A huge rant, but I'm not complaining about Nexon.

AMagicLieAMagicLie
MapleStory 2 Rep: 510
Posts: 10
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in General Chat
I’ve been wanting make this post for a while now, but I held off since I’m afraid of the backlash I’ll receive from the community or the indifference.

I’ve been reading posts on both the official forums and Reddit, and there 3 popular suggestions that I disagree with, and also reminds me of how selfish the community is:

• Remove Fair Fight
• Fix RNG
• Too much Dailies

I understand why people want to remove fair fight. It wastes time, and creates an incentive to only invite people with a certain gear score or higher. This results in newer players having much more difficulty progressing in the game, since parties aren’t willing to accept players with a low gear score. This in turn discourages new players, leading to a decline in population. Without fair fight, stronger characters can simply carry lower gear players through the important dungeons in order to help gear them up, as well as speed up dailies. I know it isn’t exactly fair to compare Global Maplestory 1 to Global Maplestory 2, but in Global Maplestory 1 there is no fair fight system so you can clearly see the effects of not having a fair fight system. In Global Maplestory 1, you can find players willing to carry you through important end-game gear dungeons (the most well-known being Chaos Root Abyss), which helps promote social interaction.

I believe that removing the fair fight system won’t do anything to help the population of Global Maplestory 2. Focusing on Global Maplestory 1, since there is no fair fight system, no one ever bothers to start a party with another player, and parties are where the majority of social interactions occur. Nexon knows this and had events that would promote social activity, which have failed. The only times players actually make a party is when:

- Players are forced to have a minimum amount of players in their party, in order to enter the dungeon
- Players aren’t strong enough defeat a boss on their own
- During the early stages of the game

Otherwise, the majority of players end up soloing for the majority of the game.

There is a case where players do party with another random players for the sake of grinding levels, but players are only willing to party with a player that is playing a certain class (specifically the class Kanna, which is able to increase the spawn rate of enemies). This case does not apply to Global Maplestory 2, as there is no classes that provide any kind of leveling benefit when partied with.

As a consequence of Global Maplestory 1 not having a fair fight system, the game ends up feeling more like a single-player game, as there is almost no social interaction.
If Global Maplestory 2 were to remove the fair fight system, the result would likely be similar to Global Maplestory 1, where most players will end up soloing most of the game themselves, unless they are forced to have a certain number of members in their party to enter, or they happen to meet another players in early game that happen to also be doing the same quest as them.

Simply making the bosses stronger after removing fair fight to encourage players to party with one another, would result in stronger players discriminating weaker players once again, as they would only be willing to party with other stronger players for certain bosses, which defeats the one of the benefits of removing the fair fight system. Making the bosses stronger in Global Maplestory 2 will likely be met with criticism as well, as this solution would divide the stronger characters and the newer players even further, since it will make it even more difficult for newer players to gear of for end-game, discouraging newer players. Some will point to the earlier solution where stronger characters can simply just carry the newer players for the bosses, but with the costs of enchanting, it’s very likely that carries will be sold as well. Selling dungeons carries are already evident in the game as of right now. In addition, many players will likely not be willing to carry new players as often, since most players are preparing for end-game by doing their dailies as college students and/or have jobs. Even though it is possible to carry players in Global Maplestory 2 in its current condition right now, I often don’t see stronger players outright willing to carry random newer players, which would imply that there will be no difference for the divide between stronger and newer players, if fair fight was removed (though I might be wrong about this point since I’ve only met 3 players out of the many other stronger players who were willing to carry newer players). The only real benefit I see for removing fair fight would be to reduce the amount of the time needed to finish daily dungeons, under the assumption that the bosses are not strengthened.

On the topic of reducing time, there were also posts that pointed out the issues with the enchant RNG and the amount of dailies that a player has to complete. While I do agree that the RNG is ridiculous on some occasions, and there is a large amount of dailies that are given to a player, everyone forgets the Global Maplestory 2 is a free game.
From what should be obvious, Nexon doesn’t earn any money from players who decide the play one of their games without paying a single cent. Still, Nexon has to do something about paying their employees, maintaining their servers, etc. This is why Nexon needs to be greedy, they need to do everything they can to persuade players to pay money, as the players who play their games for free are greedy themselves. It takes time and money to develop a game as large MMORPG like Maplestory 2, which why I get frustrated at people bashing Nexon and complaining about the game’s flaws and any pay-to-win aspects. What do you expect? It’s free, those that don’t spend a dime shouldn’t complain. For few players that are willing to pay money, of course it’s more reasonable to be frustrated at the game’s flaws, you did pay money to get a better experience, but it’s similar to paying for the most expensive room in a low-end motel. I can understand the frustration as well that comes with pay-to-win features. I could’ve spent months preparing a character for end game, when someone willing to drop a large sum of money can do so in a matter of weeks. It feels like all that effort I put into that character was wasted. The only way I can feel better about it is believing that the person who payed has “no skill” and I actually spent time learning about my character, or I didn’t waste money on something that isn’t meaningful. These things are expected though, when someone decides to the play a MMORPG entirely for free. In a sense, the "whales" that are looked down upon are actually paying for other players to play a game that should not be free.

I’d imagine things to be quite different if Maplestory 2 was a pay-to-play game, but with the mistakes that Nexon has made in the past towards their community, making Maplestory 2 a pay-to-play game would very likely be the target of negativity, and I doubt that many players would be willing to pay money to play that game given Nexon’s reputation. That’s why Nexon doesn’t have a choice but to use any method to entice players to pay. This is why Nexon probably sets RNG to be low for certain features and provide numerous dailies, Nexon needs to you stay so that they can show you all the new things that they will be releasing that might pique your interest to open your wallet/purse. If everyone could get to easily max out their gear of end-game quickly, then players will lose interest in the game quickly, and Nexon obviously can’t market to players who don’t want to play the game. When you finish a game, you usually don’t end up playing that game for the rest of your life because you’re bored since there’s nothing left to do in the game. This is why Nexon wants to increase your playtime by making it difficult to reach endgame and are always adding new content. I’m fine with the RNG and number of dailies that are available (as long as it’s reasonable…).

There’s also seems to be this idea of getting to endgame as soon as possible. Everyone isn’t forced to complete every single daily, unless they have a goal of reaching endgame as soon as possible. Even more so if someone as student, and/or someone that has a job, is complaining about not having enough time to complete all the dailies. Priorities need to be fixed if they believe that they should have enough time complete all the dailies while finishing their studies and/or working at their job, compared to someone who can play full-time. Someone who can play full-time obviously can progress farther into any game, compared to students who have to take some of that possible play time out to progress towards their degree, or people using that possible play time to earning income to help independently support their life, the comparison isn’t fair.

Nexon has made several mistakes in the past that have negatively affected my opinion of them, especially in Global Maplestory 1 *cough* 2017 Kanna bans *cough* Arcana Weapons Bans *cough* Lack of Maplestory 1 customer support *cough* Control over Reddit posts in the past *cough* but the community itself acts pretty negatively as well. Despite them being Nexon, I feel bad for Nexon always in a losing situation against the community, no matter what Nexon tries to do. Outside of the really rare occasions where Nexon manages to satisfy the community, anything Nexon does is met with criticism.

The whole point of this post was to get these feelings and thoughts off my chest, so to anyone that has read this post, thank you for listening to me rant!
WiLBoYStellaeoraWilBoySuckWliaAnura_XtonyCryotronMarpeCyntusSoamiand 1 other.

Comments

  • LuminaEdgeLuminaEdge
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 8,430
    Posts: 361
    Member
    edited 2:02PM January 16, 2019
    The problem isn't fair fight.

    The problem is the damage formula scales so obnoxiously that one person can deal the damage of 4 other people. Resulting in dungeons that are impossible to properly balance between new players and old players. Forcing nexon to try to do SOMETHING to make party play viable if they want this game to not be the dying mess MS2 is.

    The amount of damage growth needs to be rescaled across the board, not just for dungeons, so that players can still get stronger without completely outscaling early game players exponentially. Big numbers doesn't make for good progression.

    Instead of +15 epic weapons literally doing double or triple the dmg of +10 Epic players; 50% more dps would be actually sane in comparison..

    Such a change would allow the developers to reduce HP for "chore" bosses all alround. Making them faster for EVERYONE to clear, not just the super geared ones. Who would still benefit from gearing in all content with fair fight being removed.
    From what should be obvious, Nexon doesn’t earn any money from players who decide the play one of their games without paying a single cent. Still, Nexon has to do something about paying their employees, maintaining their servers, etc. This is why Nexon needs to be greedy, they need to do everything they can to persuade players to pay money, as the players who play their games for free are greedy themselves. It takes time and money to develop a game as large MMORPG like Maplestory 2, which why I get frustrated at people bashing Nexon and complaining about the game’s flaws and any pay-to-win aspects. What do you expect? It’s free, those that don’t spend a dime shouldn’t complain.

    However, you are absolutely wrong here.

    F2P Players provide content via their presence, they provide a market demand/supply and social aspect as well as ADVERTISEMENT via word of mouth to other players who have the potential to be heavy spenders.

    They do more than enough for the game to earn the right to complain as consumers. There's a reason why F2P models became popular in the first place. Its not just hoping to lure each individual into spending, but their ability to promote the game to other potential spenders is invaluable to a games health.

    Ive seen heavy spenders quit games because their F2P friends got bored and moved on. Its ABSOLUTELY in nexon's best interest to keep F2P players engaged and F2P players are just as important to the games health as the spenders. Its foolish to treat them as second class cititzens, especially from a business perspective.
    AMagicLieWliastarkiller1286CryotronBabou
  • SileriusSilerius
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 940
    Posts: 71
    Member
    In Maplestory 1 the drops are not instanced like in ms2, most of the people who go and solo (ex shade with 2mill range here) went to solo cause they didn't want the drops taken from them by a newbie, either by accident with a pet or intentionally, and since most of them had a daily or weekly limit, it hurted. Fairfight gone won't assure people jumping to help newbies, but at least would make the idea more welcomed; in dungeons like balrog or Lube that they need to finish the population is so low there are almost no low level priests to help them survive for long in those if they decide to run a low gear party and I'm sure as hell that people won't try and die over and over again with lowbies because it feels like they are actually soloing with only 30% of their actual damage.

    Fairfight gone would be beneficial, because if you can solo, why not take a few newbies with you? they won't take your stuff since every single member gets their own drops, and it's a little more damage. You call the comunity selfish forgetting that there are people who are taken back by FF and don't help newbies for that reason, smh, oh, and don't think those parties of legendary only are the most talkative ones, they go, kill, cap, tyfp, and i'ts gone.

    And the thing about selling carries, you know how much people would be able to do it with fairfight gone? the competition would be HUGE and prices would drop a lot, maybe to the point for people to not worry about it, I'm talking about Hard dungeons ofc, but i think we are mainly focusing on that, with a +10, which is pretty easily obtainable, newbies could grind their way to the top, but without Fair cancer.

    RNG is stupid. I remember playing Blade and soul and gathering the materials for upgrades, it took time, many dungeons, but once you had it you could make it and get ready for the next, here you can fail +12 till get max stacks, toadtool made it easier for the fodder weapons, but the guys who are at legendary right now.... oh boy. I didn't mind the RNG on weapons tbh, but when you are at legendary you only have 6 chances to get your weapon a week, CHANCES, and legendary is endgame... right now, there is ascendant gear if i recall, how long would that take for 12 year old timmy to +11 his ascendant nexon? oh... till his grandchildren get married? oh I see thanks.

    Nobody would worry about rng on weps if the resources weren't that limited, and with how much nexon is shoving rng endgame at our throats.... we can expect ascendant at the half of this year.

    I like dailies so I don't have an opinion on that.

    Nexon needs our money? yes, do they have to be greedy f***s to get it? no. People themselves who didn't see themselves wasting money on a game do it because... (drums) THEY LIKE THE GAME, exactly, either be fashion, housing, premium and etc, but this is not the sims, it's a mmorpg, and if the rpg aspect is so poor... well, i can see why we are at 2.3k peak players from 42k.

    Black desert online's all time peak was around 25k, last time i checked they were at half that... see why people say ms2 is dying? nexon has to attract casuals, and surround with good content so they can become hardcore, they failed on that.. terribly.

    but who knows, maybe this is what happens behind everything
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ClashRoyale/comments/a4moah/dear_supercell_we_get_it_you_dont_care_about/

    read that post and think that maybe ms2 team is good, but daddy nexon says nono and we all blame ms2 and call them lazy butts.


  • JazipcJazipc
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,110
    Posts: 69
    Member
    Silerius wrote: »
    In Maplestory 1 the drops are not instanced like in ms2, most of the people who go and solo (ex shade with 2mill range here) went to solo cause they didn't want the drops taken from them by a newbie, either by accident with a pet or intentionally, and since most of them had a daily or weekly limit, it hurted. Fairfight gone won't assure people jumping to help newbies, but at least would make the idea more welcomed; in dungeons like balrog or Lube that they need to finish the population is so low there are almost no low level priests to help them survive for long in those if they decide to run a low gear party and I'm sure as hell that people won't try and die over and over again with lowbies because it feels like they are actually soloing with only 30% of their actual damage.

    Fairfight gone would be beneficial, because if you can solo, why not take a few newbies with you? they won't take your stuff since every single member gets their own drops, and it's a little more damage. You call the comunity selfish forgetting that there are people who are taken back by FF and don't help newbies for that reason, smh, oh, and don't think those parties of legendary only are the most talkative ones, they go, kill, cap, tyfp, and i'ts gone.

    And the thing about selling carries, you know how much people would be able to do it with fairfight gone? the competition would be HUGE and prices would drop a lot, maybe to the point for people to not worry about it, I'm talking about Hard dungeons ofc, but i think we are mainly focusing on that, with a +10, which is pretty easily obtainable, newbies could grind their way to the top, but without Fair cancer.

    RNG is stupid. I remember playing Blade and soul and gathering the materials for upgrades, it took time, many dungeons, but once you had it you could make it and get ready for the next, here you can fail +12 till get max stacks, toadtool made it easier for the fodder weapons, but the guys who are at legendary right now.... oh boy. I didn't mind the RNG on weapons tbh, but when you are at legendary you only have 6 chances to get your weapon a week, CHANCES, and legendary is endgame... right now, there is ascendant gear if i recall, how long would that take for 12 year old timmy to +11 his ascendant nexon? oh... till his grandchildren get married? oh I see thanks.

    Nobody would worry about rng on weps if the resources weren't that limited, and with how much nexon is shoving rng endgame at our throats.... we can expect ascendant at the half of this year.

    I like dailies so I don't have an opinion on that.

    Nexon needs our money? yes, do they have to be greedy f***s to get it? no. People themselves who didn't see themselves wasting money on a game do it because... (drums) THEY LIKE THE GAME, exactly, either be fashion, housing, premium and etc, but this is not the sims, it's a mmorpg, and if the rpg aspect is so poor... well, i can see why we are at 2.3k peak players from 42k.

    Black desert online's all time peak was around 25k, last time i checked they were at half that... see why people say ms2 is dying? nexon has to attract casuals, and surround with good content so they can become hardcore, they failed on that.. terribly.

    but who knows, maybe this is what happens behind everything
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ClashRoyale/comments/a4moah/dear_supercell_we_get_it_you_dont_care_about/

    read that post and think that maybe ms2 team is good, but daddy nexon says nono and we all blame ms2 and call them lazy butts.


    So... what other games do you play?
  • WiLBoYWiLBoY
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,560
    Posts: 373
    Member
    Wow, an actual good post on these forums. The OP is able to understand the consequences of certain actions.

    P2W also furthers the gap between players. They would need to buff bosses to make content more difficult for p2wers and casuals would not be able to attempt. RNG is what is keeping players close right now. People don't seem to understand this.

    Great post.
    Anura_Soami
  • AMagicLieAMagicLie
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 510
    Posts: 10
    Member
    @LuminaEdge
    The problem isn't fair fight.

    The problem is the damage formula scales so obnoxiously that one person can deal the damage of 4 other people. Resulting in dungeons that are impossible to properly balance between new players and old players. Forcing nexon to try to do SOMETHING to make party play viable if they want this game to not be the dying mess MS2 is.

    The amount of damage growth needs to be rescaled across the board, not just for dungeons, so that players can still get stronger without completely outscaling early game players exponentially. Big numbers doesn't make for good progression.

    Instead of +15 epic weapons literally doing double or triple the dmg of +10 Epic players; 50% more dps would be actually sane in comparison..

    Such a change would allow the developers to reduce HP for "chore" bosses all alround. Making them faster for EVERYONE to clear, not just the super geared ones. Who would still benefit from gearing in all content with fair fight being removed.

    I never looked into how damage was calculated! This is the first time I've heard of the damage scaling in MS2 being ridiculous. I can agree with removing fair fight if issue really lies with the damage formula. To me, it sounds reducing how the damage scales really does help the newer player have a easier time catching up to the older players. On top of everyone's damage being lower, I can see why it's possible for the developers to reduce the HP of the bosses, but I'm not sure whether if it makes it faster to everyone to clear the dungeon more quickly. This is because I believe reducing the damage scale probably would extend the time it requires to clear a boss, so the time that it takes to clear a boss with the current game mechanics, compared to the removing fair fight + modifying the damage formula + lowering the bosses HP, might not make a difference with regards to clear time.

    However, you are absolutely wrong here.

    F2P Players provide content via their presence, they provide a market demand/supply and social aspect as well as ADVERTISEMENT via word of mouth to other players who have the potential to be heavy spenders.

    They do more than enough for the game to earn the right to complain as consumers. There's a reason why F2P models became popular in the first place. Its not just hoping to lure each individual into spending, but their ability to promote the game to other potential spenders is invaluable to a games health.

    Ive seen heavy spenders quit games because their F2P friends got bored and moved on. Its ABSOLUTELY in nexon's best interest to keep F2P players engaged and F2P players are just as important to the games health as the spenders. Its foolish to treat them as second class cititzens, especially from a business perspective.

    I had forgotten that F2P players are a source of "free" advertisement, and that F2P players help contribute to the blackmarket's supply and demand. For your reasoning for F2P games becoming increasingly popular, I originally assumed the only reason for F2P models' popularity was to just increase the game's population, as it's much more easier to get people to try something that's free compared to something that has a payment barrier, alongside MMOs simply being fun if there's a large population. I completely neglected the network effect that comes with attracting as many players as possible, which helps boost my previous reasoning for F2P models' popularity even further. I now completely agree with your statement that F2P players are just as important as players willing to spend money on the game, and have revised my own opinion on the importance of F2P players versus spending players. On top of having attracting many players with the F2P model, I've realized upon reading your post that having as many players as possible helps with pointing out the flaws that are within the game (#Two_Heads_Are_Better_Than_One). While there might be a few groups here and there demanding the unreasonable from Nexon, F2P players still help out with pointing out bugs/exploits on top of making suggestions to the game, so that Nexon could leave a more positive impression on newer and older players, leading to a positive feedback loop between attracting players, the network effect, and improving the game. F2P players really are important to a F2P game.


    @Silerius
    In Maplestory 1 the drops are not instanced like in ms2, most of the people who go and solo (ex shade with 2mill range here) went to solo cause they didn't want the drops taken from them by a newbie, either by accident with a pet or intentionally, and since most of them had a daily or weekly limit, it hurted. Fairfight gone won't assure people jumping to help newbies, but at least would make the idea more welcomed; in dungeons like balrog or Lube that they need to finish the population is so low there are almost no low level priests to help them survive for long in those if they decide to run a low gear party and I'm sure as hell that people won't try and die over and over again with lowbies because it feels like they are actually soloing with only 30% of their actual damage.

    I see, I haven't been able to solo any of the Chaos bosses in Maplestory 1 ever, so I didn't realize that the main reason that people didn't party was to avoid wasting a Boss run. If that was one of the sole reasons that soloing in Maplestory 1 was a common thing, then I agree more with removing fair fight since the items in Maplestory 2 are instanced if someone is able to solo. I still don't believe that removing fair fight will contribute a whole lot towards improving social activity though.
    And the thing about selling carries, you know how much people would be able to do it with fairfight gone? the competition would be HUGE and prices would drop a lot, maybe to the point for people to not worry about it, I'm talking about Hard dungeons ofc, but i think we are mainly focusing on that, with a +10, which is pretty easily obtainable, newbies could grind their way to the top, but without Fair cancer.

    That is true, carrying in the game in it's current state is troublesome so I can see why it's not common as of right now. So if fair fight is removed, it makes sense that more people will be offering carries for a lower price, but I doubt it will as low as to the point where it wouldn't make a difference. I'd imagine we would be in a situation similar to the Reboot server in Maplestory 1.
    RNG is stupid. I remember playing Blade and soul and gathering the materials for upgrades, it took time, many dungeons, but once you had it you could make it and get ready for the next, here you can fail +12 till get max stacks, toadtool made it easier for the fodder weapons, but the guys who are at legendary right now.... oh boy. I didn't mind the RNG on weapons tbh, but when you are at legendary you only have 6 chances to get your weapon a week, CHANCES, and legendary is endgame... right now, there is ascendant gear if i recall, how long would that take for 12 year old timmy to +11 his ascendant nexon? oh... till his grandchildren get married? oh I see thanks.

    Nobody would worry about rng on weps if the resources weren't that limited, and with how much nexon is shoving rng endgame at our throats.... we can expect ascendant at the half of this year.

    I believe even Nexon understands the enhancement by RNG is absurd, which is why they offer an alternative option to upgrading weapons outside of chance enhancement. I heard from some other players that it's not worth using that option, but I believe that it's worth it in certain cases, when you believe that the materials required to upgrade your equipment by using the change method, will require more than the guaranteed method. So I'm still firm on believing the RNG is fine as it is (unless they decide to remove the guaranteed upgrade option). Alongside with that, resources might be limited but there is no rush to get to end game...

    LuminaEdge
  • IllIIlIllIIl
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,030
    Posts: 475
    Member
    AMagicLie wrote: »
    To me, it sounds reducing how the damage scales really does help the newer player have a easier time catching up to the older players.

    No it doesn't, quite the opposite. Fair fight heavily dampens attack gains after a you hit a certain threshold and this puts a stronger emphasis on bonus attributes which is something mostly the veteran players accel at. It also breaks several game mechanics like the Havi poison and renders certain item effects like the attack buffs from various gear useless turning them essentially into noob traps. Fair Fight is nothing but a cancer which should be removed and replaced with a proper downscaling system e.g. one that lowers your gear level down to the level of the area in question.
  • jlaijlai
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 810
    Posts: 18
    Member
    +1 to removing fair fight in dungeons but keep it for world bosses. I think RNG is fine, just remove the weekly dungeon limits. People are only complaining because you can't progress anymore once you reach the limit.
    ActualChabby
  • SileriusSilerius
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 940
    Posts: 71
    Member
    @AMagicLie

    With the current population, you're right, it won't make a huge difference with the sellers, it would be huge if we had at least half of the players we had.

    And peachy would be viable, ofc if it didn't take an absurd amount of materials, having a +15 in what? 1 year? and let's not forget that legendary is just our temporary ''endgame'' until ascendant kicks our butts.
    Anura_
  • StellaeoraStellaeora
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,450
    Posts: 106
    Member
    edited 5:22PM January 16, 2019
    The damage disparity for MS2 is okay. Compared to MS1 it's a godsend, but compared to something like FFXIV it's pretty large. If I had to put those two games (MS1 and FFXIV) on two opposite ends a spectrum, I'd say MS2 is right around the middle. The disparity is also similar when compared to several other MMOs (Aura Kingdom and its intense detail dmg scaling comes to mind). But having tried both ends of the spectrum, I'd definitely lean towards the FFXIV side -- though not all the way.

    More specifically though, I would suggest:
    - Lowering the ridiculous Bonus Attack multiplier on Legendary weapons
    - The gains between a +0 and +15 weapon should be evenly distributed throughout the enchantments, not concentrated on the last few enchants. Enchantment RNG becomes almost a non-issue with this one change, as upgrades past +10 will be incremental only. Correspondingly, the disparity between low and high RNG players lessens, because a +11/+12 is only slightly worse than a +15. Far too much pain and suffering could be fixed just by this alone, since weapon enchantment is the single biggest DPS increase you can get in the entire game (perhaps tied only with a Lv50 epic pet).
    - Piercing really should do what it says it does. By that I mean it should just ignore enemy defense instead of acting as an inversely-scaling final damage multiplier. In its current state the Piercing stat literally scales higher as you get more of it, directly pushing damage disparities wider.
    - I'd also suggest that the max possible rolls for all "DPS" stats should be reduced somewhat. Max possible roll of 5/6% is an awful lot considering that you can roll a DPS stat on every piece of gear.

    Well, this is all wishful thinking though. Given how heavily the damage formula is baked into the game design I'd say it's improbable bordering on impossible that Nexon will actually change it.
    AMagicLieCryotron
  • IllIIlIllIIl
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,030
    Posts: 475
    Member
    edited 5:29PM January 16, 2019
    Stellaeora wrote: »
    - Lowering the ridiculous Bonus Attack multiplier on Legendary weapons

    The bonus attack multiplier isn't even that big, you can thank the the +12% damage effect from the panic weapons for the huge difference in power.
  • AMagicLieAMagicLie
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 510
    Posts: 10
    Member
    edited 5:34PM January 16, 2019
    @WiLBoY
    P2W also furthers the gap between players. They would need to buff bosses to make content more difficult for p2wers and casuals would not be able to attempt. RNG is what is keeping players close right now.

    I didn't realize that P2W options indirectly affects the progress of casual players. I can see how it makes sense now, since if the P2W options are too postive then the enemies would need to be scaled appropriately as well, since reducing the benefits of a purchased P2W item later will be met with negativity.


    @IllIIl
    No it doesn't, quite the opposite. Fair fight heavily dampens attack gains after a you hit a certain threshold and this puts a stronger emphasis on bonus attributes which is something mostly the veteran players accel at. It also breaks several game mechanics like the Havi poison and renders certain item effects like the attack buffs from various gear useless turning them essentially into noob traps.

    This sounds exactly like what fair fight was designed for, to prevent veterans from progressing too quickly compared to newer players, to give them to a chance catch up. Like you said though, eventually the Fair Fight will be applied to them, but that's to help the next generation of newer players catch up to the older generation of new players.

    Fair Fight is nothing but a cancer which should be removed and replaced with a proper downscaling system e.g. one that lowers your gear level down to the level of the area in question.

    I thought goal was to remove the idea of Fair Fight entirely, so that nothing would limit veterans in lower dungeons. The new system you offered sounds like a Fair Fight system. I like the idea that LuminaEdge proposed on how damage in general is calculated should be revised, as enhancements shouldn't make an absurd deal of a difference like how it is right now. A +15 weapon, in my opinion, shouldn't be x2 or x3 better than a +10 weapon, but there should be some sort of large noticeable difference to provide incentive to upgrade to a +15 weapon.


    @jlai
    +1 to removing fair fight in dungeons but keep it for world bosses.

    I completely agree with keeping fair fight on for world bosses. Other players need an opportunity to encounter the boss as well. As for removing Fair Fight on dungeons, after hearing other's inputs, I now see Fair Fight more like a temporary fix, rather than a helpful feature, to slow the gap growing between newer and older players. I'd like to see Fair Fight removed, but only when a better alternative solution to the divide between newer and older players arises.

    I think RNG is fine, just remove the weekly dungeon limits. People are only complaining because you can't progress anymore once you reach the limit.

    I didn't mention the weekly dungeon limits as I don't really understand why Nexon added that limitation, outside of my guess being to limit the rate at which a player can progress. The dungeon limit discourages players from playing the game for longer periods of time, which I believe is the opposite of what Nexon *wants, but I'm sure there's a better reason why Nexon would include this feature.

    *Edit: Replaced 'whats' with 'wants'
  • IllIIlIllIIl
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    edited 5:52PM January 16, 2019
    AMagicLie wrote: »
    This sounds exactly like what fair fight was designed for, to prevent veterans from progressing too quickly compared to newer players, to give them to a chance catch up.

    Fair fight does nothing to prevent veterans from "progressing too quickly" as hardcore players will always cap the important content. If anything that's what all the RNG and time gating does and that's not even necessary as people have more than enough time to gear up before the next big content update hits.

    AMagicLie wrote: »
    I thought goal was to remove the idea of Fair Fight entirely

    I don't recall setting up any goals, I was never against implementing some kind of downscaling system in order to prevent low level world bosses from being one-shotted.
  • AMagicLieAMagicLie
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    edited 6:10PM January 16, 2019
    Silerius wrote: »
    And peachy would be viable, ofc if it didn't take an absurd amount of materials, having a +15 in what? 1 year? and let's not forget that legendary is just our temporary ''endgame'' until ascendant kicks our butts.

    I expect it's going to be absurd, since I am choosing an option that will ensure I get the upgrade I want without the chance of it failing, it would be a complete different story if peachy only reduced the chance of it failing.

    I'd like to think of endgame gear as a limit, rather than a requirement to fight bosses. I haven't obtained any legendary gear yet, so hearing that there will be more tiers in the future means that I'll have more things to do, when I do manage to get legendary gear.


    Stellaeora wrote: »
    Well, this is all wishful thinking though. Given how heavily the damage formula is baked into the game design I'd say it's improbable bordering on impossible that Nexon will actually change it.

    That's disheartening, though I guess this is to be expected. Not a lot of players would be amused to hear that their DPS will be lowered, so a huge outcry might occur. Not to mention what you said, they really would have to modify every single entity in the game that relies on the damage formula, and that sounds like pain.

  • AMagicLieAMagicLie
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    IllIIl wrote: »
    I don't recall setting up any goals, I was never against implementing some kind of downscaling system in order to prevent low level world bosses from being one-shotted.

    Sorry, I was the under the assumption that you wanted to remove any sort of Fair Fight system entirely. From what I understand, the majority of the community prefers that there shouldn't be a fair fight system at all.

  • AMagicLieAMagicLie
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    edited 5:59PM January 16, 2019
    Accidentally added this post when I meant to edit another one

  • SileriusSilerius
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    @AMagicLie If you want and if you're in NA east i can take you raid, no matter your gs jsut have enough for cdev, it's better see the things for yourself.
  • AMagicLieAMagicLie
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    edited 6:22PM January 16, 2019
    Silerius wrote: »
    @AMagicLie If you want and if you're in NA east i can take you raid, no matter your gs jsut have enough for cdev, it's better see the things for yourself.

    Thank very much for the offer, but I'm pretty sure chaos dungeons take quite some time to do, on top of having a time limit, so I don't want to take your time and other's just to prove a point. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "it's better to see things for yourself."?
  • SileriusSilerius
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    edited 6:35PM January 16, 2019
    AMagicLie wrote: »
    Silerius wrote: »
    @AMagicLie If you want and if you're in NA east i can take you raid, no matter your gs jsut have enough for cdev, it's better see the things for yourself.

    Thank very much for the offer, but I'm pretty sure chaos dungeons take quite some time to do, on top of having a time limit, so I don't want to take your time and other's just to prove a point. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "it's better to see things for yourself."?

    I actually just wanted to take you raid just cause the fun of it, and finding learning party can be difficult these days, and no worries, if people know what they are doing, it won't take a long time, one death won't be much of a difference. And the see for yourself, i was actually referring to the mechanics that are simple but people are afraid of, I honestly wasn't thinking about proving a point .-.

    I'm not that committed to make poeple change their minds, i got a job :p
  • VisualFxxVisualFxx
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    @AMagiclie

    I didn't mention the weekly dungeon limits as I don't really understand why Nexon added that limitation, outside of my guess being to limit the rate at which a player can progress. The dungeon limit discourages players from playing the game for longer periods of time, which I believe is the opposite of what Nexon *wants, but I'm sure there's a better reason why Nexon would include this feature.

    The main reason the gating was implemented was because it was out in Korea first. Over there they have a big problem with gaming addiction and people are constantly dying from it. Sitting down for way to long sometimes multiple days without sleep cutting off a lot of circulation to legs and other body parts. Also no hydrating and a crap ton of other things that are just unhealthy so to combat this Korea implemented a stamina/gating type system to prevent players from becoming as addicted. This was never changed for Western audiences so they just kept it and increased it with our extra 30 run reset option. However as you can tell for a Western audience this simply doesn't work, as our version of MS2 also doesn't have any pay2win options to offset the severe lack of dungeon runs.
    AMagicLie
  • AMagicLieAMagicLie
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    Silerius wrote: »
    AMagicLie wrote: »
    Silerius wrote: »
    @AMagicLie If you want and if you're in NA east i can take you raid, no matter your gs jsut have enough for cdev, it's better see the things for yourself.

    Thank very much for the offer, but I'm pretty sure chaos dungeons take quite some time to do, on top of having a time limit, so I don't want to take your time and other's just to prove a point. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "it's better to see things for yourself."?

    I actually just wanted to take you raid just cause the fun of it, and finding learning party can be difficult these days, and no worries, if people know what they are doing, it won't take a long time, one death won't be much of a difference. And the see for yourself, i was actually referring to the mechanics that are simple but people are afraid of, I honestly wasn't thinking about proving a point .-.

    I'm not that committed to make poeple change their minds, i got a job :p

    I don't think I have enough gear score anyway, on top of being afraid of messing up.