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Design Shop, stolen designs and no consequence.

UngodlyUngodly
MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
Posts: 17
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edited 1:46AM November 27, 2018 in General Chat
Nine days ago i noticed that someone stole my design from the EU server and posted it on the NA East server. I reported the item in game and gave the - what i thought would be the sufficient - information.
A couple of days later the item is still up for sale, so i made a ticket on this site and this time i gave even more specific information with screenshots. The day after i get an email and the support asked for information - information that i've already had given in the ticket. So i gave the same information again + some more information and attached even more screenshots of my item just to make sure the information would be stupendously clear this time. I also reported that my design wasn't the only the person had stolen.

Now nine days later my design is still not removed. It's popular and selling decently too.

This is not about the merets for me. The two important things (in the realm of this game) for me is that i can make enough merets to make more designs and to have copyright and control over my designs. I would give my stuff away if i could. But the fact that some duckhead steal, take credit and make merets on my work is just demoralizing and sad. And the fact that Nexon doesn't seem to react to this fast enough or at all just makes it worse.

The main reason i'm writing this is that i seriously question what kind of bad system they must have for the Design Shop if they can't cross-check if someone's stealing a design and cross-check a reported item? Should it really be this complicated? After all, we're talking about people putting in many hours of work (well, some of us) to bring items to the game that people are spending real money on and that Nexon is making money off. They might not be able to totally prevent copyright theft, but the system around reporting and checking if an item is stolen should be solid and swift.

This whole thing has put a wet blanket over my will to design anything more and i suggest that everybody who design stuff keep an eye out for stolen design. Not that Nexon seems to do anything about it tho.

Ps. This is the UGC btw. Ds.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MapleStory2/comments/9w1reo/greatsword_ragnarök_europa/
DanDKEinoKhrisisOneConfusedMilletianMatchaTeaPkmdzTseneDragonicWolf

Comments

  • MochiAiMochiAi
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 4,305
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    Sadly the UGC stealing has been going on since KMS2 and every other version of MS2. Nexon has failed to contain this problem and is still ongoing. I don't think they have the capacity or manpower to track down UGC stealing.
    You should still keep on sending them mails and demand something be done. Having your work stolen is one of the most grueling experience and more so that the people who are supposed to support the creators are ignoring the problem.
    DanDKMeso_ManEino
  • UngodlyUngodly
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
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    MochiAi wrote: »
    Sadly the UGC stealing has been going on since KMS2 and every other version of MS2. Nexon has failed to contain this problem and is still ongoing. I don't think they have the capacity or manpower to track down UGC stealing.
    You should still keep on sending them mails and demand something be done. Having your work stolen is one of the most grueling experience and more so that the people who are supposed to support the creators are ignoring the problem.

    Yeah, i sent another mail yesterday. Also it's just weird that Nexon obviously looked into my case since they asked for more information, but yet, now a week after that, it's still up. Almost like they don't believe me and left it alone.
    And yeah, it really sucks. It's not like downloading a movie from a faceless multi billion corporation. I have several UGC in the works that i simply don't care about finishing anymore. F this.
    DanDKPkmdz
  • ArSkulderArSkulder
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,215
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    I have said a few times in this forum that increasing fee won't prevent people from ripping UGC, but yeah Nexon prefer more money instead of doing it right. I'm still seeing people listing new ripped item. That's why I stopped creating UGC except for private use when I hang out with friends on house, and I only use free template now, won't give Nexon money for UGC anymore. Why would I pay more while my creation is still being ripped.
    RusikyKhrisisNiaPkmdzHeartdonorAkuaVermelia
  • Meso_ManMeso_Man
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,130
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    wait are people able to relist UGC items after they buy it? thats a really big oversight by Nexon.
  • OwntrolfOwntrolf
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,485
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    Meso_Man wrote: »
    wait are people able to relist UGC items after they buy it? thats a really big oversight by Nexon.

    No, they somehow either find the .png or they use a program to rip all the UGC .pngs of everyone nearby them ingame and then upload those files to sell
  • FantasykittenFantasykitten
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,620
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    the sad reality is that the nexon GM team can't keep up with all the tickets. they are completly swamped.

    + if they gave more GMs the power to solve more problems. instead they have to juggle the tickets around to diffrent departments. an only cetain GM's have the real power to take any actions witch bottlenecks the whole chain. so if the GM's who read the ticket first also had the power to take action right then an there it might speed the process up. but no as said they have to juggle the tickets around an only few GMs have the power to really do anything.

    (this is just my take on how i think the system work)

    an the sad but cold hard fact is the only way to solve all the UGC problems is to remove the entire system. becouse its clearly broken an people don't give 2 shits about following the rules. an in a way i whould i be fine with them removing the UGC systems from the game. completly. it might free up some GMs an other staff to help with the other pile of more importan issues an tickets.
  • EinoEino
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    Meso_Man wrote: »
    wait are people able to relist UGC items after they buy it? thats a really big oversight by Nexon.

    Rippers don't have to buy anything. They use illicit third-party software and scripts to rip anything they want to rip as long as their client loads it.
  • UngodlyUngodly
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
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    edited 12:44PM November 27, 2018
    an the sad but cold hard fact is the only way to solve all the UGC problems is to remove the entire system. becouse its clearly broken an people don't give 2 shits about following the rules. an in a way i whould i be fine with them removing the UGC systems from the game. completly. it might free up some GMs an other staff to help with the other pile of more importan issues an tickets.

    That's kinda my point also. If they decide to have this kinda feature in the game, it must work in every aspect. It's a real money transaction feature and real people (the creators) working for Nexon, in a sense. It should be taken and handled more serious. But as it is now they should either remove it or make the Design Shop world wide cross servers. Hopefully then they could keep track of stuff like this. Altho, they should already have a system that at least keep track cross servers.
  • UngodlyUngodly
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
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    Eino wrote: »
    Meso_Man wrote: »
    wait are people able to relist UGC items after they buy it? thats a really big oversight by Nexon.

    Rippers don't have to buy anything. They use illicit third-party software and scripts to rip anything they want to rip as long as their client loads it.

    That's probably the case :/.
    Also it seems like the stolen UGC have lower resolution than the originals. My stolen UGC were more blurry and pixelated. I believe there's a final compression when you create the template, which means; the copies are a compressed version of the compressed originals.
  • _Lil_Puddin__Lil_Puddin_
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,210
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    edited 1:10PM November 27, 2018
    Scenario 1:
    Party 1 creates something original and uploads it as a showcase. Party 2 somehow steals it, and uploads it to the server before you got around to it (since it costs merets to upload anyway). GMs are unable to tell if the "stolen product" was something that existed on a forum before being put into the game. Since Scenario 1 could exist... Or might not exist. Being the first to create it in game does not constitute as an official "made it first" stamp. Showing them on the forum also doesn't constitute as an official "made it first" stamp. They don't know where the rabbit hole ends and they don't want to punish someone who doesn't deserve to be punished (just because they didn't think to quadruple-gather evidence that they actually made something).

    Scenario 2:
    "It was stolen and put on another server!"
    "Were you gonna upload it to that server eventually?"
    "Well, no, bu-"
    "Bye Felicia!"
    "But they're making merets off my content!"
    "You weren't going to sell it there anyway."
    "But it's my content!"
    "But they're not stealing sales from your server."
    "BUT IT'S MY CONTENT!!!"
    "Wow you're getting so bent out of shape over nothing that actually messes you up on your server lmao."

    Think of it this way. Your content is on brand and the real deal; your brand doesn't deliver to the whole world (yet). Nothing stops China from stealing your design, altering it ever so slightly (or just removing your brand name logo), and selling it for cheaper/the same price to parts of the world you didn't sell it to. That's essentially what UGC is here. With the agreement we agree to, we're not guaranteeing our product's safety and originality. We're just guaranteeing Nexon's safety and allowing them to remove things (that are offensive or super-duper-copyrighted). Stuff we make is far from super-duper-copyrighted. It's basically as copyright-protected as a T-shirt design from Wildwood Boardwalk (not at all).

    -=-=-=-

    It's crappy. It's unfair. But this is G-Rated Ebay Law (anything but lewds and super-duper-copyrighted go). We agree to it the moment we put something online. Which is why people are taking commissions up front to create outfits. That way we make the content, we sell the content and get the one-time-fee, and now it's someone else's problem if they decide to put it up on the meret shop. The GMs owe us nothing - because - again - it's G-Rated Ebay law. Which agaaaain, is crappy and unfair. But them's the breaks. If it ain't lewd, it's not their problem - it's a personal problem. If you make something for your character and then upload that to the meret shop... It's thrown into the cess poll that is Ebay Law.

    Though if the GMs care to do things they aren't fully obligated to do, they might help you. But that's like going out of your way to help 1 customer. That you do not know at all. And you don't even 100% know the details of what they're looking for. And you've already done all you're obligated to do already. During a Black Friday sale. But you're going to go oooooout of your way to keep helping them anyway. So I'm hoping one of the GMs becomes a holy saint and helps you despite them drowning in intense workloads, but I'm also trying to be 100% real with you here.
  • UngodlyUngodly
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
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    edited 3:32PM November 27, 2018
    [text].

    First of all - thanks for your well crafted response :).
    I'm sort of aware of everything you're saying. Besides my need of venting this problem, i might have a naive way of believing that a game company want their game to succeed by eliminating things that drive people away. At the same time, me and my reaction - to be discouraged to continue creating - is probably in the minority. And Nexon is making money off stolen designs. It's probably a win for them, so it's not a priority.

    About the scenarios: In my case i uploaded it on EU server first, then posted on Reddit a couple of days later and a few days after that it appeared on NA East. It's not hard proof, but it's a simple pointer at least. In a sense the report button and the report ticket is actually useless. Chicken or the egg-argument could be applied to every report.
  • DeadBotDeadBot
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,995
    Posts: 101
    Member
    edited 4:55PM November 27, 2018
    Scenario 1:
    Party 1 creates something original and uploads it as a showcase. Party 2 somehow steals it, and uploads it to the server before you got around to it (since it costs merets to upload anyway). GMs are unable to tell if the "stolen product" was something that existed on a forum before being put into the game. Since Scenario 1 could exist... Or might not exist. Being the first to create it in game does not constitute as an official "made it first" stamp. Showing them on the forum also doesn't constitute as an official "made it first" stamp. They don't know where the rabbit hole ends and they don't want to punish someone who doesn't deserve to be punished (just because they didn't think to quadruple-gather evidence that they actually made something).

    Scenario 2:
    "It was stolen and put on another server!"
    "Were you gonna upload it to that server eventually?"
    "Well, no, bu-"
    "Bye Felicia!"
    "But they're making merets off my content!"
    "You weren't going to sell it there anyway."
    "But it's my content!"
    "But they're not stealing sales from your server."
    "BUT IT'S MY CONTENT!!!"
    "Wow you're getting so bent out of shape over nothing that actually messes you up on your server lmao."

    Think of it this way. Your content is on brand and the real deal; your brand doesn't deliver to the whole world (yet). Nothing stops China from stealing your design, altering it ever so slightly (or just removing your brand name logo), and selling it for cheaper/the same price to parts of the world you didn't sell it to. That's essentially what UGC is here. With the agreement we agree to, we're not guaranteeing our product's safety and originality. We're just guaranteeing Nexon's safety and allowing them to remove things (that are offensive or super-duper-copyrighted). Stuff we make is far from super-duper-copyrighted. It's basically as copyright-protected as a T-shirt design from Wildwood Boardwalk (not at all).

    -=-=-=-

    It's crappy. It's unfair. But this is G-Rated Ebay Law (anything but lewds and super-duper-copyrighted go). We agree to it the moment we put something online. Which is why people are taking commissions up front to create outfits. That way we make the content, we sell the content and get the one-time-fee, and now it's someone else's problem if they decide to put it up on the meret shop. The GMs owe us nothing - because - again - it's G-Rated Ebay law. Which agaaaain, is crappy and unfair. But them's the breaks. If it ain't lewd, it's not their problem - it's a personal problem. If you make something for your character and then upload that to the meret shop... It's thrown into the cess poll that is Ebay Law.

    Though if the GMs care to do things they aren't fully obligated to do, they might help you. But that's like going out of your way to help 1 customer. That you do not know at all. And you don't even 100% know the details of what they're looking for. And you've already done all you're obligated to do already. During a Black Friday sale. But you're going to go oooooout of your way to keep helping them anyway. So I'm hoping one of the GMs becomes a holy saint and helps you despite them drowning in intense workloads, but I'm also trying to be 100% real with you here.

    That scenario for #2 triggerd me.

    Even tho people will say "ooh but you wouldn't post that item on our area so someone else did and im happy to see that there!" But those are people who haven't took a day just to make a UGC item and profit off of your work you took time off of maple for.

    I wouldn't mind players ripping models off of maple if you are using them for meme videos or animations but outfits takes it to another level. Its like Messo bots and scammers but for the Fashion art community. Maple2 is already falling apart by these people and it may end up like Kmaple2 and slowly die off due to players leaving due to this crap thats going on in the system. The only way this would stop is if Nexon would wake up and look at what the dark side of the community is doing to a game they are making money off of. The only way they would see that is if everyone in maple goes on a strike and stops buying any custom overlays on both their and players side and stop Merits ..
  • MochiAiMochiAi
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 4,305
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    It's crappy. It's unfair. But this is G-Rated Ebay Law (anything but lewds and super-duper-copyrighted go). We agree to it the moment we put something online. Which is why people are taking commissions up front to create outfits. That way we make the content, we sell the content and get the one-time-fee, and now it's someone else's problem if they decide to put it up on the meret shop. The GMs owe us nothing - because - again - it's G-Rated Ebay law. Which agaaaain, is crappy and unfair. But them's the breaks. If it ain't lewd, it's not their problem - it's a personal problem. If you make something for your character and then upload that to the meret shop... It's thrown into the cess poll that is Ebay Law.

    Though if the GMs care to do things they aren't fully obligated to do, they might help you. But that's like going out of your way to help 1 customer. That you do not know at all. And you don't even 100% know the details of what they're looking for. And you've already done all you're obligated to do already. During a Black Friday sale. But you're going to go oooooout of your way to keep helping them anyway. So I'm hoping one of the GMs becomes a holy saint and helps you despite them drowning in intense workloads, but I'm also trying to be 100% real with you here.

    What in the world are you talking about. Either you are high or have no idea what you are talking about. It is the GMs, or the company's support department to protect their users. If they pushed forth a user created content as a thing, they are obligated to protect the creators. Don't even compare this to corporate level copyright infringement, because it is not, this is a small game where creators expect to put out their unique design and be recognized for it. If their attitude towards the whole UGC ripping is as you say then this game needs to be dragged through a dung pile and burnt.
    Once again, go put your silly head in a garbage can and stop spewing this trash logic. Drowning in intense workloads my ass, LMAO.
  • PumpkinSpicePriestPumpkinSpicePriest
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 570
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    Man that blade is GORGEOUS! I'm so sorry to hear your work has been stolen. :( I've ran into a lot of people who have had their work stolen and have spent weeks sending in tickets and arguing against the copy-paste method in support tickets. I hope all of this gets resolved soon.
    Ungodly
  • EinoEino
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,655
    Posts: 123
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    edited 4:31AM November 28, 2018
    I noticed on the official MS2 Discord for UGC, rippers are still chatting and going strong despite admitting to ripping or getting called out.

    If fellow UGC creators / players don't care and continue to support rippers - why should the GMs bother?
  • MochiAiMochiAi
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 4,305
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    edited 9:14AM November 28, 2018
    Eino wrote: »
    I noticed on the official MS2 Discord for UGC, rippers are still chatting and going strong despite admitting to ripping or getting called out.

    If fellow UGC creators / players don't care and continue to support rippers - why should the GMs bother?

    What in the world... if some people enjoy bending over then they are free to get used up. But there are people who wish to keep their creation, not giggle and prance like an idiot while others steal their work. If the player asks for assistance regarding this matter, GM better get on it.
    DragonicWolf
  • BeariieBeariie
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    Just dont support the design shop. Literally dont interact with it. If it brings in less money nexon will hopefully see that theres a issue. But atm its not hurting them financially so why bother fixing it?

    Your design is sick and I know you want to gain merets off your hard work, but the issue you ran into will not be handled no matter how much evidence there is. Just look at how many dupes there are on the store.
    Ungodly
  • AnamiAnami
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,590
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    As unfortunate as it is, the best thing to do is "go on strike" on the design shop. Do UGCs via commissions and make a terms of agreement with your customer like so many others are doing. This is a valid issue and Nexon doesn't understand how serious it is right now.
  • LuminaEdgeLuminaEdge
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 8,435
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    Beariie wrote: »
    Just dont support the design shop. Literally dont interact with it. If it brings in less money nexon will hopefully see that theres a issue. But atm its not hurting them financially so why bother fixing it?

    Your design is sick and I know you want to gain merets off your hard work, but the issue you ran into will not be handled no matter how much evidence there is. Just look at how many dupes there are on the store.

    problem is they can just mark off design shop as "a failure" and "people had no interest in creating content so we cut back support"

    Its boycotting both style crates AND ugc you want to do. Even thats unlikely because the style crate system is designed to pull whales that wanna stand out. All it takes is a couple of them and they'll still be content.

    And even then they're likely to pull out P2W stuff to make money if all else fails them. Sounds kinda defeatist but we need a level of coordination here to compensate for Nexon's lack of action
  • _Lil_Puddin__Lil_Puddin_
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,210
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    edited 10:37AM November 28, 2018
    MochiAi wrote: »
    What in the world are you talking about. Either you are high or have no idea what you are talking about. It is the GMs, or the company's support department to protect their users. If they pushed forth a user created content as a thing, they are obligated to protect the creators. Don't even compare this to corporate level copyright infringement, because it is not, this is a small game where creators expect to put out their unique design and be recognized for it. If their attitude towards the whole UGC ripping is as you say then this game needs to be dragged through a dung pile and burnt.
    Once again, go put your silly head in a garbage can and stop spewing this trash logic. Drowning in intense workloads my ass, LMAO.
    You are extremely hostile, are you OK?

    Anyway, all offenses do not have the same urgency and consequences. It's humanly impossible to treat every different offense as a top priority (that's something entitled customers often assume of companies, employees, etc). GMs are just people. And they have to read every single ticket that comes in; that just being one of their duties. That includes bogus reports, unwanted suggestions, bot-made-tickets (made to purposefully increase workloads so GMs have less time to address REAL reports of bots/etc), or even questions that aren't even in their department. They have to understand and comprehend the tickets so they can help, they can't just glance over it, spin a roulette wheel, and hope it's the right action. Though it's made even worse because they often do not have access to all the information they need to 100% answer tickets (which is why they have responses like "this is all we can share with you at this time").

    This UGC stealing nonsense is indeed a problem. But it is not a new problem It doesn't make their outrage any less justified. The GMs and this game are not equipped to protect original designs. It is extremely hard to do that, as seen with ye olde art sharing websites (Deviantart for example). That is why creators found different ways to make money and/or mildly protect their work by doing extra things (watermarks+print selling, etc). It doesn't make stealing their work OK and they do what they can. But the artists also know if someone wants something on the Internet - they really want it - they will get it.

    MS2 is not immune to how the Internet works. MS2 is not perfect. MS2 is just as susceptible to original works being stolen as any other work-sharing website. MS2 is not an exception to how things have worked over the past decade(s). MS2 is not run by gods who can control codes in the game and the people who play it. GMs are not robots and their jobs aren't ezpzy. Do not belittle their jobs and pretend you fully understand it.

    TL;DR = HunTy. Just stop.