During the October event period, the Escaped Moon Bunny world boss spawns at the following times:

NA West: 02:30 AM - 05:30 AM UTC
NA East: 11:30 PM - 02:30 AM UTC
South America: 10:30 PM - 01:30 AM UTC
Europe: 5:30 PM - 8:30 PM UTC
Oceania: 08:30 AM – 11:30 AM UTC

Dungeon ...."Tactics" and Venomous Mouth Breathers

BaronLövatBaronLövat
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in Dungeons
I just want to say,

the self imposed and forced tactics for dungeons are getting old, fast.

Watching people get abused, and even myself being cussed out or called names because you're "not doing the tactics you scrub" is precisely why people call the community toxic.
And just to be clear, I'm not talking about the mechanics, I'm talking about stupid self imposed crap like Ledge Stacking in Fire Dragon etc. People cleared FD for several weeks just fine and even with solid times, without using these stupid cheese tactics.

But then again, trying to get irrational sheep to be conscious of their irrationality is a fight you'll never win. What's the saying, don't argue with idiots?

Comments

  • DanDKDanDK
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    Just as it is irrational to flame and abuse others, it is equally irrational to refuse to use the most optimal and efficient tactics to clear the dungeons.
    It's pretty obvious to everyone that Nexon fails at designing anything even remotely close to an enjoyable dungeon boss fight so obviously people want to clear them as fast as possible so they can farm more RNG rewards. Going so far as to call it exploiting is debatable, but either way Nexon proved time and time again that exploiting is not only acceptable but also encouraged (cheaters in Mushking etc.)
    Therefore it is completely normal for people to want to clear the dungeons quickly using any means possible, though of course they have no right to be toxic about it.
    HeimerdingerNiaAzzatoCabrera
  • ToxicBeehiverToxicBeehiver
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    Well if you get tired of it I always find it fun to do dungeons with 2.1k people and explaining to them the dungeon.

    I felt like a proud dad when I had a newbie stun Verrakant with his own echoes.
    Nekunaylumos
  • RalleYTNRalleYTN
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    DanDK wrote: »
    it is equally irrational to refuse to use the most optimal and efficient tactics to clear the dungeons.

    efficiency makes you want to quit this game.
    efficient = no fun
    high risk of getting killed = fun
    DanDK wrote: »
    It's pretty obvious to everyone that Nexon fails at designing anything even remotely close to an enjoyable boss fight

    taking FD as example and having played things like Devil May Cry and Dark Souls I can say that with the exception of the immense health pool and the Dash-Spam in its first phase. it is a really well made boss. it has no bullflip attacks. everything is clearly signalled and if it had only 20M HP instead of 50M the pacing would be brilliant.
    I really enjoy the Fire Dragon. but only if I play it solo. with a priest this is really a no brainer boss
  • InternetPersonInternetPerson
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    edited 5:05AM November 23, 2018
    RalleYTN wrote: »
    high risk of getting killed = fun
    Not stacking for FD does not make you have a high risk of getting killed. All it does is make the run take longer. If OP does not wanna do the stacking tactic, he can always just ask the group before starting. When I make groups for FD I always mention stacking in the text. So if someone joins and doesnt stack, they will be asked to stack and if they refuse they will be replaced.

    Has nothing to do with risk of getting killed. Lets put it like this, lets say stacking cuts down the fight by 1-2min. On the day you cap you can do 30 runs (15 daily +15 reset). That is 30-60min longer in total if you dont stack. I am quite bored of FD but I need it for my weapon, I dont wanna spend anytime longer then needed in FD hence I will do the stacking and save time. If you wanna do the fight slow and steady, thats also fine. Thats your choice. But depending on what group you join..you should follow what the group intends to do. If its through random dungeon finder..thats another story just do what you want I dont expect anyone to listen there.
  • XenociderOmegaXenociderOmega
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    I just want to say,

    the self imposed and forced tactics for dungeons are getting old, fast.

    Watching people get abused, and even myself being cussed out or called names because you're "not doing the tactics you scrub" is precisely why people call the community toxic.
    And just to be clear, I'm not talking about the mechanics, I'm talking about stupid self imposed crap like Ledge Stacking in Fire Dragon etc. People cleared FD for several weeks just fine and even with solid times, without using these stupid cheese tactics.

    But then again, trying to get irrational sheep to be conscious of their irrationality is a fight you'll never win. What's the saying, don't argue with idiots?

    Sounds like you're the one being irrational
  • BaronLövatBaronLövat
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    Sounds like you're the one being irrational

    Saying people don't need to be so god damn angry when someone doesn't want/know these strats isn't being irrational. Getting pissed on a game and calling people the most disgusting things imaginable is, which is what my point was stressing.
    If someone doesn't do the strat whatever it may be, adapt and adjust that run then resolve it when the run is over.
  • January28thJanuary28th
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    I usually just leave when people don’t stack.
  • InbumInbum
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    edited 1:21PM November 26, 2018
    DanDK wrote: »
    Just as it is irrational to flame and abuse others, it is equally irrational to refuse to use the most optimal and efficient tactics to clear the dungeons.
    It's pretty obvious to everyone that Nexon fails at designing anything even remotely close to an enjoyable dungeon boss fight so obviously people want to clear them as fast as possible so they can farm more RNG rewards. Going so far as to call it exploiting is debatable, but either way Nexon proved time and time again that exploiting is not only acceptable but also encouraged (cheaters in Mushking etc.)
    Therefore it is completely normal for people to want to clear the dungeons quickly using any means possible, though of course they have no right to be toxic about it.

    FD stacking is more of a bug and an ugly one at that. Is it funny seeing it the first time? Sure. Doing it for the rest of your life and only that for the whole dungeon and not having maplestory 2 on and just a keyboard while you sit on the toilet holding the macro key? Amazing. How about getting to hold on to fd while he runs through the dungeon actually works, that's ten times more fun but maybe you like to fd where you eat is it? Is that how the saying goes? You don't go full fd stack, you never go full fd stack. That's the saying. You do go on a magical journey and fly away to victory when you hold on to fd. That's something I think everyone would like and not complain about.
  • InbumInbum
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    RalleYTN wrote: »
    high risk of getting killed = fun
    Not stacking for FD does not make you have a high risk of getting killed. All it does is make the run take longer. If OP does not wanna do the stacking tactic, he can always just ask the group before starting. When I make groups for FD I always mention stacking in the text. So if someone joins and doesnt stack, they will be asked to stack and if they refuse they will be replaced.

    Has nothing to do with risk of getting killed. Lets put it like this, lets say stacking cuts down the fight by 1-2min. On the day you cap you can do 30 runs (15 daily +15 reset). That is 30-60min longer in total if you dont stack. I am quite bored of FD but I need it for my weapon, I dont wanna spend anytime longer then needed in FD hence I will do the stacking and save time. If you wanna do the fight slow and steady, thats also fine. Thats your choice. But depending on what group you join..you should follow what the group intends to do. If its through random dungeon finder..thats another story just do what you want I dont expect anyone to listen there.

    Yeah but do you have the EPIC pyros fard's gloves and ring with ultimate fire reduction? Haha, just kidding those are more decorative and don't actually do anything. Imagine if Blaknov gave Wily's One Card Deck, actual useful item, from the dungeon that has the boss in it, which you also need to advance, amazing! WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But hey maybe you should still be doing Tronix bunker or the first dungeon in the game instead of doing Pyros cus you know, you need to do something with your life, why not make it take longer to get your FD weapon enchant fails instead and be stuck at tronix bunker getting MK52 earrings which literally don't do anything! They could give stats for the next dungeon, but haha lol why would you ever make any sense of anything just do FD for the rest of your life hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahhhhahahahahahahahaha.
  • AzzatoAzzato
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    DanDK wrote: »
    it is equally irrational to refuse to use the most optimal and efficient tactics to clear the dungeons.
    +1
    FD already has 4-6 min of chasing around the dragon, not stacking does nothing but tack on another min of chasing it around.
    That isn't fun
    that isn't "high risk"
    That is simply saying, I want to waste my teammates time.

    If you don't know a strat, no issue

    If you do know the strat, and don't partake in it out of some misguided moral compass, you are in the wrong and you are wasting peoples time, and you should feel bad.

    I wouldn't flame you for it, but I sure as heck would not be in your party for more than 1 run.
  • BaronLövatBaronLövat
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    edited 6:18PM November 26, 2018
    Azzato wrote: »
    If you do know the strat, and don't partake in it out of some misguided moral compass, you are in the wrong and you are wasting peoples time, and you should feel bad.

    I wouldn't flame you for it, but I sure as heck would not be in your party for more than 1 run.

    It doesn't make sense to contradict yourself in the very same response.
    Aside from that little glimmer of hypocrisy, and using the FD stacking as an example [my OP wasn't specifically about FD stacking it's just the most well known example], it's a form of abuse of game mechanics. I wouldn't suggest anyone would get in trouble for doing it because it's incredibly minor and only serves to shorten the run time assuming it goes as planned. But I must confess that it is abusing the games AI and mechanics.

    There's a reason people referred to it early on as "glitching FD" and other similar terms. People know full well it's not supposed to do that, it's not* how it was intended to behave, and players are taking advantage of that.

    Admitting that, you then have to attempt to take the perspective if you want to be fair, and entertain the notion that if it is bugging/glitching/abusing/exploiting the games AI and/or map construction, logically it may be fixed/altered in the future. Hammering it into every players head that they should, and I quote "feel bad" for not doing it, is a risky position to take as you then come off as a ill-tempered player with no regard or minimal regard for rules and ToS. Not counting the obvious fact that abusing players for simply not knowing or wanting to abuse these mechanics just makes you look like an irate numpty.
  • CabreraCabrera
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    Well calling it a "bug" or a "glitch" is also over dramatizing what actually happens. You could call it that if players went "unharmed" and killed the FD in like 2 minutes as it was staying that way for the entire duration of its health(which is not the case), Even if you say this is just an example, name others and I can explain them in ways they arent even considered as "bug" or "glitch" or whatever you call it and against ToS(lmao). It is basically saving ur time from running behind FD a whole lot and nothing else really and you would be doing a kind gesture to others if you help them out with that strat rather than making them run behind the dragon as well. Unlike Chaos raids you dont get additional rewards for getting an "S" its just for time saving that those strats are done. Besides that, if you did aim for +15 or what not, FD no longer becomes "fun" its more of a job to get dupes, telling people who have done the same dng over and over again that you wont do the strat cuz as mentioned by someone else, its against ur moral code or whatnot, your simply wasting their time. If you want to have fun with FD why not solo it then? have some "me" time with the FD, enjoy getting to know it better.
  • BaronLövatBaronLövat
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    edited 11:33PM November 26, 2018
    Your argument is based around the understanding that I called it a bug, I did not. I was speaking about the common parlance used by the community to describe the tactic in a brief way. I accurately defined it as abusing AI/Mechanics, because that's precisely what it is. I've had my fair number of rounds with defenders of this type of gameplay and it's never earnest, and nearly always comes from a place of defense of the abuse by individuals participating in it. In this instance, I even stated that I don't consider this to be a severe instance of abuse and punishment should not be enacted. In fact my entire point was that berating abusing and attacking people isn't the appropriate response to players who don't participate in these tactics. Nothing more. That point could be made for just about every situation in gaming everywhere, but I chose the dungeoneering community specifically because I've seen far too many people go beyond nasty to new players who don't know or use these manipulations.
  • CabreraCabrera
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    There's a reason people referred to it early on as "glitching FD" and other similar terms. People know full well it's not supposed to do that, it's not* how it was intended to behave, and players are taking advantage of that.

    Admitting that, you then have to attempt to take the perspective if you want to be fair, and entertain the notion that if it is bugging/glitching/abusing/exploiting the games AI and/or map construction, logically it may be fixed/altered in the future. .

    This is what misguided me into your assumptions. Apologies if it was misunderstood.

    If thats not the case, I agree, there are salty players out there but, most people at least in my server rationalize with the fact that they are new and say stuff like "just stand here" or something along those lines to help them out, its not in EVERY instance in FD where they are so toxic that u get kicked or they leave cuz u dont know how to stack(again just an example, this can be considered for others too). You could report them with reasoning of "toxicity or communcation abuse" but the thing is, it ends up in Nexon's hands again to consider those reports as ban worthy or not.

    Dont get me wrong, im not one of those people who never got abused for not knowing a strat, I was a knight and I didnt even know what I had to do in Cdev (imagine the salt I had to take in) the first time I went in and it was just a "Cdev practice" which ironically doesnt go past 30% of the boss's HP most of the time. Salt is there everywhere, you cant do anything about it, Its like making a youtube video and expecting it to have 1 million+ views with 0 dislikes (theres gonna be some goof that dislikes it just for the sake of it) similarly, salty toxic players are inevitable, if the mods dont address it, players cant either. If you mean to say that mods have to do something about the toxicity, then I 2nd to that and am in your side on that matter. If people are willing to learn a "Strat" and comply to it to help out with an efficient way of clearing dungeons, there shouldnt be a problem. An issue of toxicity usually arises only when you are told clearly about a strat and you ignore it and tend to grief your other party members.
  • NekunNekun
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    Honestly I know what you mean, I had not run FD for a while cause I was spamming Lubelisk for wings and such. I get back into FD and everyone was doing this stacking stuff. I had no idea what it was and was called out as being a scrub/bad at the game? Excuse me....I was clearing it fine before! I really don't have an issue with the mechanic, I just don't think its alright to be an outright jerk to people who may or may not know about the mechanic. You can't just assume. Maybe ask "hey, know about the stacking thing?". No need to chew people out in all honesty. For me personally if there is not a cleric I am a wiz and don't like wasting my potions for the stacking mechanic either.
  • KewkkyKewkky
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    DanDK wrote: »
    It's pretty obvious to everyone that Nexon fails at designing anything even remotely close to an enjoyable dungeon boss fight

    I personally think craids are pretty fun. Cpap looks pretty awesome too.