Check out the patch notes for the v17 Precursor Update here: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/53778/precursor-update-v17

"State of the Game Week 4" by Jungsoo Lee

Comments

  • PoevezPoevez
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 620
    Posts: 25
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    edited 4:55AM November 7, 2018
    How is this making things better for the creators , in my defense sounds like you’re trying to make them cough up more cash then they have to
    mewberimirta000NiaKodaigaMiynJicuSherri
  • etrietri
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 845
    Posts: 10
    Member
    edited 7:48AM November 7, 2018
    Thank you Nexon, for single-handedly managing to kill what little of the OCE/SA market that was there. As a OCE designer, I really appreciate it. You're essentially telling us smaller servers that if we want a sliver (just a sliver) of a chance of making any profit what-so-ever off our designs, we now have to move to NA. Thank you. Posting my designs was nice while it lasted. You might as well give us all server changes at this rate.

    Besides my obvious displeasure with these recent changes, I posted some calculations in the suggestion thread here to highlight why these changes are extremely bad for smaller servers. I've also included them in the spoiler below.
    Most sales here in OCE were during the headstart period, when founders had merits to blow. After that, sales have slowed down to a crawl, with good designs barely selling - you'd be lucky to sell a design more than once here.

    I compared the current listing costs to the new costs - which has brought me to the very obvious conclusion that it is no longer viable to sell UGC in OCE/SA with the new listing fees. Belong are the calculations for the more popular UGC templates.

    We assume a couple of things here.
    1. We didn't use any template coupons.
    2. We didn't promote the item. (the market is so slow it's not worth bothering)
    3. We put items up for the base price on the market. (same price as template iic)
    4. We assume there was no listing fee when calculating the old cost.
    5. We sell enough to break even.
    6. We assume Nexon is kind enough to round any decimals up.

    CURRENT COST (70% profit)

    Cap - 250 to create = 175 from sales
    > sell 2 to make 350
    > 100 profit

    Suits - 400 to create = 280 from sales
    > sell 2 to make 560
    > 160 profit

    Jersey - 400 to create = 280 from sales
    > sell 2 to make 560
    > 160 profit

    Hoodie - 300 to create = 210 from sales
    > sell 2 to make 420
    > 120 profit

    Shirts - 200 to create = 140 from sales
    > sell 2 to make 280
    > 80 profit

    Tight Pants - 200 to create = 140 from sales
    > sell 2 to make 280
    > 80 profit

    Shoes - 150 to create = 105 from sales
    > sell 2 to make 210
    > 60 profit

    Boots - 220 = 154 profit
    > sell 2 to make 308
    > 88 profit

    NEW COST (75% profit, 490 listing fee)

    Cap - 250 to create, 490 to list, total cost 740
    > 187.5 from sales, round up to 188
    > sell 4 to make 752
    > 12 profit

    Suits - 400 to create, 490 to list, total cost 890
    > 300 from sales
    > sell 3 to make 900
    > 10 profit

    Jersey - 400 to create, 490 to list, total cost 890
    > 300 from sales
    > sell 3 to make 900
    > 10 profit

    Hoodie - 300 to create, 490 to list, total cost 790
    > 225 from sales
    > sell 4 to make 900
    > 110 profit

    Shirts - 200 to create, 490 to list, total cost 690
    > 150 from sales
    > sell 5 to make 750
    > 60 profit

    Tight Pants - 200 to create, 490 to list, total cost 690
    > 150 from sales
    > sell 5 to make 750
    > 60 profit

    Shoes - 150 to create, 490 to list, total cost 640
    > 112.5, round up to 113
    > sell 6 to make 678
    > 38 profit

    Boots - 220, 490 to list, total cost 710
    > 165 profit
    > sell 5 to make 825
    > 115 profit

    With designs on OCE/SA barely making 1-2 sales over the span of a month, having to sell 3-7 of an item before making a pittance of a profit just isn't viable. We'd now have to be extremely lucky to break even in the span of 3 months.

    POTENTIAL COUNTERPOINTS

    > Charge more for your designs.

    It's nice to consider but it's risky. You have to consider what Nexon charges for their cosmetics (between 390 - 640 merits, not considering style coin shop) and that merits are inherently more expensive for OCE/SA players. (1 AUD = 0.73 USD, 68.62 AUD = 50 USD or 1 USD = 3.75 BRL, 50 USD = 187.73 BRL ) Besides, if your designs aren't selling at the lowest possible price, increasing the price wouldn't really change much.

    > Move to an NA server if you want to sell UGC.

    Most OCE/SA players don't want to give up on their servers just yet. Yes, they're a lot smaller in comparison to NA but it's nice to be able to do hard dungeons without having to pray that displacement lag doesn't end up killing you. It's also nice that Nexon acknowledged our existence for once. Also moving to an NA server would require starting over and having to cough up NX again, which is annoying.

    TLDR: OCE/SA servers are much smaller, have to pay more for merits due to exchange rates, and a very slow market means good designs struggle to make even one sale in a month. This new listing fee essentially kills any incentive to upload UGC to the design shop for us because we now have to be extremely lucky to break even in the span of 3 months for a pittance of a profit. :)
    mewberiWAtheAnummirta000NiaVeremisiaArSkulderMiynBakaAnikiKodaigaSherriand 2 others.
  • TheDefianceTheDefiance
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 445
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    I like the UGC changes, all except one thing. The sales in different territories are so far apart that if you're on Oceania it would never be worth it for you to pay 500 for template + 490 for listing. I am in EU and my Sword (top seller mind you) sold only 18 times. While on NAE and NAW sales go through the roof. Why can't we get a shared market now that this change is being implemented? I think it's extremely de-motivating to content creators across different regions with how little sales there are.
    mirta000Nia
  • NanokoNanoko
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,860
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    Xnknown wrote: »
    Thank you for the UGC changes. real designers can afford to pay 490 merets for an item that is high quality created and that will sell 10+ times.
    Can't complain about this, this will 100% clear up the effortless memes ugc and keep in the better designs. Thnx.

    I think I can design quite well, but at the same time what if I don't have the money to begin with and I want to earn that first? I can't, hence I can't put my stuff out there and create new stuff for the community. This just feels like a big slap in the face for the smaller artists that don't earn enough of money from commissions or etc.
    mewberietrimirta000VeremisiaNiaAruteeruSyrusMarufujiMiynKodaigaCarbonCoaland 2 others.
  • Mroz123Mroz123
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 495
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    So, if I pay 500 for template and 490 for listing I would have to sell the design for 1320 just to break even? And if I don't find a millionaire who pays 1320 for a design I will loose 490? That's stupid. And what if you design something which is attractive only to a particular group of people? This is pure lottery.
    mirta000NiaMiynmewberiKodaigaCarisei
  • ImmortalDreamerImmortalDreamer
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 740
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    While I like what the devs are trying to achieve here, this isn't the way to go about it. If your "fixes" are inconveniencing the regular, rule-following players, then its not worth it.
    WAtheAnumSyrusMarufujimewberiMiynNiaKodaigaMintylicious
  • MiynMiyn
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 720
    Posts: 18
    Member
    Ugc creation was nice while it lasted i guess. This pretty much closes the market for every starting artist and just keeps the ones who already made a ton of merets. Its like irl, who cares for the small companies °-°
    mewberiNiaKodaigamirta000ArSkulderSyrusMarufujiSherri
  • YuforiaYuforia
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,295
    Posts: 16
    Member
    + I agree with the suggestion to limit players from using ad balloons and etc by Gear Score and not level

    + Good changes (FF, DCs etc)
    - but this UGC one is going to be really bad implemented
    One thing that would make everything better is make the UGC shop cross server, its not easy I think but completely doable. If its possible to other games to make dungeons cross server, a shop is way "less hard".
    And the fee should be based on the item template cost, as some ppl already said

    Anyway, we all know that its easier to just sell designs by commission instead of using the UGC shop, a good amount of ppl from my server do it
    Kodaigamewberi
  • hankiepixhankiepix
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,640
    Posts: 82
    Member
    Okay let me just vent before the UGC apocalypse starts.
    And if you aren't a UGC seller but a buyer I do suggest you read this so you get the sellers point of view.


    NXACuddles wrote: »
    Dear Maplers,
    Objective of the Change

    The main objective of the changes are to ensure that:
    1. We support great designers with creative mindset with better exposure and better revenue share structure
    2. We protect original creations from other players copying their designs
    3. We provide shoppers with a better experience, focusing on high quality and more creative designs
    4. We protect the shop from content which explicitly violates the Terms of Service - especially sexually suggestive/obscene, copyright and trademark designs
    5. We ensure review of the designs are based on clear guidelines, to avoid applying different standards to different designs

    Which do you think will be accomplished by the changes you plan to enforce?
    As for supporting great designers, you are implying that all great designers will make 1000s of merets instantly, which is not true, especially if you aren't in NAE or NAW. Also sellers are in a really tight spot because buyers are so used to minimum price unless everyone bumps up their price, no one will.
    As for protecting original creations, the only way to do that would be to just straight up ban the players who are ripping because they've actually already made 1000s of merets unlike some great designers who put time and effort into their work, and they will barely be affected by this unless you actually ban them.
    As for protecting shoppers, they don't care about better experiences because they are simply unaware of whats been going on with the whole ripping thing and some even in this thread are unaware of what it takes to afford 500 merets per item.
    As for protecting the shop from things that violate terms of service, we are yet to see the new details in the UGC guidelines, even though its less than 24 hours before these guidelines are meant to be enforced even though you should be aware that the new changes will cause people to upload as much as they can while its 2000% cheaper?
    As for ensuring the review of the designs based on clear guidelines, again where are these guidelines. Lets be real normies who play this game might enjoy their pepe t shirts and thanos cars but some meme content is rightfully justified and okay to sell even though it's obvious that when you guys say low effort content this is what you mean, though I don't make this kind of low effort content myself I understand that it should be allowed to exist, but reviewers are going to be very biased on this even if the meme content doesn't necessarily break any of the rules. It's wrong to ban it unless of copyright issues/spam issues.

    I appreciate the effort to fix the problem, but punishing B/C tier creators (and A tier creators if in EU, OCE, SA) because you couldn't be bothered to fix rippers when we were all screaming about it when the game first out (even one of the maple runway winners was using ripped UGC) is just wrong, and you are going to drill the UGC market into an early grave by doing this. In fact you have left it so long that some rippers have made a surplus of 50k in purely ripped items. Do you think that a 500 meret listing fee is going to stop them? Lul , gg.
    (also thanks for informing us about such a radical change only 48 hours before the change, now in a rush having to finish 4 unfinished projects so I can save myself 1900 merets)

    Whatever, time to look up on guides on how to open up for commissions for the first time.
    mirta000MiynKodaigaTheDefianceArSkulderJoTheWeirdoVeremisiaM4XXmewberiWAtheAnum
  • pyrite321pyrite321
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 740
    Posts: 12
    Member
    I randomly got a 3 day Citation debuff but never received a notice of why or what. It's been 2 days and nothing has even been removed so I'm confused. Nothing I've registered on the market is even offensive so I don't know what's going on.
  • TheDefianceTheDefiance
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 445
    Posts: 6
    Member
    I suggest everyone references to this post as it's regarding the UGC shops and changes.
    http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/42049/ugc-across-regions-merits-to-account-not-server
  • KodaigaKodaiga
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 965
    Posts: 7
    Member
    edited 11:11AM November 7, 2018
    hankiepix wrote: »

    ...(also thanks for informing us about such a radical change only 48 hours before the change, now in a rush having to finish 4 unfinished projects so I can save myself 1900 merets)

    Whatever, time to look up on guides on how to open up for commissions for the first time.

    DUDE. You're so right I didn't even think about that! They ACTUALLY waited to add this in 2 days before the update but have been going on and on about this Chaos update for weeks. Transparency with NEXON is pretty selective don't you think?

    This is why my guild and I all walked out on Vindictus more than once, it turned into something ugly and cash-starved and it wasn't worth playing anymore. I had really high hopes for this one, honestly, I did. Wouldn't have gotten a founder's pack if I hadn't.

    Sadly, these changes, I fear, are going to be the first amongst many cash grabbing ploys that are going to make me deeply regret my decision. It was already hard to make merets with the current system because artists' sales are based on buyer taste in fandoms, memes, styles, etc, like any fashion in RL would be. Unlike during CBT2, it is now 10 days to wait on merets when it was originally just 7 days. I didn't complain about that increase because whatever, I'm not impatient, I can wait 3 more days.

    However. You realize that this new change will butcher new designers, yes? Those with jobs who only pay enough for bills and necessities I can guarantee you will be wholly unable to upload on this new system you mean to employ. To upload a jersey (fave template) would be about 1000 merets, yes? So we should drop 10$ of our bill money and gamble on one SINGLE clothing item that after 3 days will drift to the ocean floor for 3 months, right? You're not helping or respecting us, you're dragging us for the few merets we actually ARE making.

    Another thing... What is low effort content to you? Do you mean meme-logo content? They sell well because it's comical, people like memes. I'm sorry people are posting half naked cartoon girls on posters for giggles but I assure you the vast majority of us are familiar with your UGC rules and have not violated them, 'supreme' meme UGC and a few emoji hats are hardly the issue here. What you're really saying is that too many people are profiting for your tastes and only people who have already gathered tens of thousands of merets are ' true/worthy designers'. You're not making as much money as you would like, and trying to regulate your own system without attacking people who haven't abused it is too tiring, so you're taking the easy way out. What's worse is that no one was given prior notice. You threw this up in a quiet hurry while everyone is busy racing to get to 4.5k Gear Score for your raids; People wouldn't notice this right away, not even on the launcher. It's cool, I'll keep world chatting until later tonight. I'd love to see what other fledgling UGC artists think of this. ^^

    Transparent would have been polls. Transparent would have been discussions and data and the best interests of the players that spent money on your game ALREADY and deserve to have a say in where their money in the future will go. You didn't ask what we wanted, you're punishing us.
    mirta000JoTheWeirdomewberiVeremisiaNiahankiepix
  • SyrusMarufujiSyrusMarufuji
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    hankiepix wrote: »
    Whatever, time to look up on guides on how to open up for commissions for the first time.

    If you need any help feel free to PM me! I've been living off of commissions for a couple of years and know quite a bit about the trade.
    mewberiCariseihankiepix
  • SyrusMarufujiSyrusMarufuji
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,395
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    edited 12:39PM November 7, 2018
    Zero items listed: 190 Merets to list a new design
    One item listed: 290 Merets to list a new design
    Two or more items listed: 390 Merets to list a new design

    UPDATE NOV 7TH IS A GODSEND! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY PERFECT. THANK YOU FOR LISTENING TO US!

    This is way more affordable for small ugc creators to partake in, and its more than fair. Thank you nexon....I'm proud of you.

    Mintyliciousmewberi
  • NXACuddlesNXACuddles
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 69,405
    Posts: 517
    Administrator
    Update (Nov. 7): Dear Maplers,

    After a thorough review of your feedback, we decided to make an adjustment to the Listing Fee structure one more time. We understand there are small UGC creators who need to test the market with smaller investments, and some regions have smaller number of listings, and as such Listing Fees will now work as follows:

    - Zero items listed: 190 Merets to list a new design
    - One item listed: 290 Merets to list a new design
    - Two or more items listed: 390 Merets to list a new design

    We strongly believe that having a reasonable entrance barrier to the market will increase the quality of the content players can shop for, and this will result in more players visiting the store. We have seen feedback that players do not want to visit the UGC store anymore because of an excess of low-quality creations making it harder to find great quality ones. This change should make it more appealing for players to visit the store regularly. Also, combined with 90-day listings and 5% more Merets going to the creators, this will let players create a more profitable business on the Design Shop.

    We will carefully monitor the trend after this change, and if any further changes are required, we will take a look at the issue and respond accordingly. Since there will be items which have been registered before this change, thus please expect this change to create a noticeable impact after 3-4 weeks.

    Best,
    Jungsoo Lee
    MintyliciousSyrusMarufujiYuforiamewberiTamakiSakuraBakaAnikiMidnightNyaSherriJicuTamieand 3 others.
  • YuforiaYuforia
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    I think everyone can at least agree that the team is trying to listen to the players and improve the game. You may not agree to one, two or even all the changes and things they make, but being harsh to the devs/gms/whatever is too far.
    LuminaEdgeMintyliciousSherrihankiepix
  • TamakiSakuraTamakiSakura
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    Thanks for listening to feedback and implementing fixes before the 11/8 update.
  • LuminaEdgeLuminaEdge
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    Yuforia wrote: »
    I think everyone can at least agree that the team is trying to listen to the players and improve the game. You may not agree to one, two or even all the changes and things they make, but being harsh to the devs/gms/whatever is too far.

    Seriously. I've wanted to say this for a long time. I actually sympathize with a lot of complaints made. I even made a few arguments here.

    However the attitude of some of the most frequent posters here is honestly irksome and dismal and does NO favors to the cause.

    Nexon could have been lazy as all hell and given us a copy paste version of kMS2 and did nothing to make the design shop any more feasible. But they're trying. However they literally cannot fix everything at once. They've worked on making a new monetization model, rescaling content to remove the p2w elements. Remodeled style crates and adjusted elements of the game to reduce botting impact, and they're finally getting around to weakening fairfight to not be so oppressive.

    They've been systematically addressing things step by step. Getting everything in order takes time and some people have to accept that.. You may not agree with the order.

    But why should a team be motivated to do anything to cater to a group of players who, after addressing one concern, immediately move on to raging about the next and insulting you because you didn't solve it EXACTLY the way they imagined?

    Most localized game releases get an awful, low amount of effort put into their release and upkeep. We could have had a much worse team working on MS2. If we had 2008-2009 Maplestory 1 team working on this game?? The game would probably be shut down already. (Yes i STILL absolutely hate nexon's staff from that generation, they were terrible.)

    I'm not saying "Oh don't complain because it could be worse." I DEFINITELY want people to complain, a lot, so concerns can be heard.

    But for the love of god

    some of yall need to have some tact about it. Maybe then you'll be heard a little bit better.
    YuforiaAliceWhat
  • mirta000mirta000
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    I'm not sure how I feel about this now.

    I guess we'll wait and see. I think that 190 merrets is ok, but it means I'll be listing maybe one item at a time every month.
    I also think that the market will still be flooded with rips and memes as those guys are rich, while here I am thinking "hmmm, 1.9$, is it worth it?".
    NiaArSkulderM4XXVeremisiaKirion
  • PinchPinch
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,625
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    edited 4:06PM November 7, 2018
    On the UGC Content User Rules and Legal Notice page it mentions:
    5) Users can earn up to 100,000 Merets in one month from the Design Shop
    -To provide opportunities for more users, the amount you earn per month is restricted per account.

    I think this monthly limit on meret earnings should either be removed or increased

    if you happen to go over 100k in sales before the end of November, im assuming you don't receive any profit from additional sales in the same month? You would basically be selling things for 0% profit after the first 100k you make. This is a huge problem for successful creators that take their time and try their best to make things. This will discourage them from submitting more designs in fear of losing profits after their first 100k of the month.

    Another issue with this is that there is an acheivment overlay for reaching a monthly earning of 200k+ in sales (blue border around your items), with the implementation of the 100k monthly limit, we won't be able to receive it, making this milestone meaningless.
    There was also supposed to be an insignia for the top designer as well, but the trophy that allows you to receive the insignia was removed from our version of the game.

    Please either remove or increase the monthly earning limit

    tldr; successful creators are limited to how many designs they list because of the 100k monthly earning cap, they receive no recognition (blue border around their items unlocks at 200k sales a month and the insignia was removed) and lose all profits after getting 100k in a month.
    LuminaEdgeXeXeeDmewbericzlrSpookyRandiSpookyOtakuKaitashiHunnieDewDrinthapPixelPantsuand 3 others.