Check out the patch notes for the v17 Precursor Update here: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/53778/precursor-update-v17

Petition to Remove Fair Fight

Comments

  • SkengsSkengs
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    Remove it from elites like Mushmom, Why do I need to spend 2-3 minutes with a 12+ weapon to kill this thing?
    Keep it on World bosses.
    Scale it down on FD or remove it completely.
  • kenynlai50kenynlai50
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    ACO wrote: »
    Eternalx wrote: »
    Sorry to break it to you, but you're part of the vocal minority here. This spread of false information is shameful and needs to stop.

    Setting aside the Fair Fight discussion and the implementation of the system for now, I want to try to address your point, clarify my "minority" statement, and to really prevent this discussion from devolving into a name calling contest.
    Eternalx wrote: »
    85% and over 700 votes is considered minority? Please learn statistics.

    I reread what I posted and realized I wasn't clear on what I meant by "minority" so I want to try to explain my reasoning.
    There are several reasons as to why I used the term minority, I will list some of them below:

    1) Maplestory 2 has seen over a million players since the official launch on October 10th. There are currently 700 voters in favor of removing the Fair Fight system, but let's round that up to 1,000 votes in favor of removal to make this point clear. 1,000 out of 1,000,000 is 0.1%. That's less than 1% of the population.

    2) Satisfied players/users/consumers are often quiet and content. While those that are dissatisfied are often loud - and they have every reason to be. Things aren't going to change by being quiet so you have to make yourself heard.

    My point in mentioning this is that it would be inaccurate and poses multiple concerns to take the sample of voters in this thread and argue that this sample is representative of the entire population.

    My background isn't rooted in pure statistical methods so I might not be up to speed with newer methodologies, but we have to be very careful with our assumptions particularly when working with such a small sample size that is potentially prone to biased sampling. Statistically, any meaningful overview extracted from this poll needs to be scrutinized to make sure that, at the very least, crucial assumptions underlying the methodology is not violated.

    All in all, red flags and alarms goes off in my head when I see posts claiming that the consensus in this thread is representative of the entire population.

    And, as a final note, I want to see Fair Fight changed just as much as most of you do. I see the value behind the concept of Fair Fight, but I also acknowledge that the current implementation is less than ideal. We should give constructive criticisms of the current system and how can the developers improve without forsaking the entire system.


    If you have ever taken statistics at the University level, in this case, the 900 people that voted are representative of the sample size. When N is greater than 30, the sample size is considered a normal distribution. That being said, 85% saying yes, it is arguably valid.
  • SaryrnSaryrn
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    This thread needs to keep living. Fairfight needs to get the hell out of dungeons - item progression in dungeons to get better items is pretty much null outside of a huge hp bar. either remove farfight in dungeons or remove the gear threadmill they cannot coexist! or give content where we are not scaled down so we no longer have to do old dungeons for the 58943289 time in slowmode to further fuel the item threadmill
  • ArtimessheedArtimessheed
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    edited 3:30PM November 4, 2018
    I do think fair fight should be nerfed somewhat to make sure higher levels get or at least keep equal edge to lower level players, However the outright removal of fair fight is at base, a bad idea. Fair fight as a safeguard is HEAVILY underestimated when anyone is petitioning its removal, here's some of the reasons why:

    -Measures against hogging/bullying: There are cases in the storyline, that players have to fight elites in the open world, as well as want to fight bosses or other elites in situations outside main questline. If fair fight were removed, it would give less-than-stellar players (LETS NOT FORGET BOTS) the ability to "camp" specific spots and use the entire unhinged DPS and gear power of said player to instantly knock out elites/bosses as they spawn. This will then cause the feature giving loot/exp/kill confirmation to anyone who attacked said elite/boss to be overshadowed by players who can simply keep firing from one spot and instantly take it out.

    -Encouraging team play: Want to get the dye color for the "Life Finds a Way" quest? Want to get quest points toward trophies for the various quests and bosses? As it is, you are going to need a party for Doudon and other boss monsters that appear in the world. This fact encourages players to find groups that share same goals, rather than going up to the bosses, and soloing them into oblivion with superior gear, level, and skill percentage. Hard mode dungeons would be more solo-able, and starting up endgame players would have difficulties finding hard dungeon parties because everyone who would otherwise look for parties could simply solo it.

    -Massive Imbalance as a result of removal: One of my personal favorite things about maplestory 2, is the fact there is no real major imbalance, and players can streamline things like gear and skill point/ability point distribution, but not end up excessively op when retroactively fighting bosses/elites. I feel players who look down on fair fight tend to underestimate that if it were removed, the stats for bosses would most likely have to be redone due to the same players who complained fair fight making things too hard, its removal would make things too easy.

    -A truly fair challenge: To be candid, fair fight is really quite FAIR, as well as difficult and fun. A lot of the fun and purpose of dungeons would be robbed if fair fight on the bosses were to be removed. Fighting the fire dragon would no longer be about how much you polished your fighting style, skill distribution, or weapons (which are by no means P2W since you can get most of what you need from dungeon runs), but, if fair fight were removed, it would be simply about how high level you are, and that's about it. Because of that, gear is less-sought-after, and any +5 murp/MSL/rune gun will do for even the hardest dungeon running. Removing fair fight would take the fun out of dungeon runs, as your character simply has to wait till it is lv 60, rather then work for a higher piercing/damage% or efficient skill/ability setup
    BakaAnikiSyrusMarufuji
  • EternalxEternalx
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    edited 8:35PM November 4, 2018
    We need to keep this thread alive. Lets not be fooled by the 10% damage increase, as it did not in theory, address some of the concerns raised here. With that said, I will keep quiet until I have tested the new FF nerf in the upcoming patch.
  • Great_ZokkiGreat_Zokki
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    edited 9:53PM November 4, 2018
    The thing is fair fight is a poorly executed version of level synching in FFXIV even though it syncs you down in dungeons in there, you still have some strangth from coming in with higher level gear. Which is how fair fight SHOULD work you still hit appropiatly for your level, but your buffed. Ontop of that a unsynch mode should be allowed to s players can go in as a higher level with their higher gear score if they so choose. FF did it and it wokrs jsut fine with balancing and getting dungeons done.

    However the player base in ms2 especially endgame players leave a bit ot eb desired in how they act wiht newere players and players trying to learn the end game. It's been hit or miss honestly. So maybe havign a mentor system in stead or a reward system for palyers who choose to kepe fair fighto n might be better.
  • SaryrnSaryrn
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    Or the simplest solution there is to fair fight, give us 60 dungeons thus making fair fight not an issue in current dungeons. if we dont have to farm 50 dungeons for the best gear when we are level 60 fair fight wont be an issue with current content!
  • CryonomicCryonomic
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    edited 3:36AM November 5, 2018
    I just had a very simplistic idea which could also be possible in this regard and of course can be discussed about since for me it seems to be not ripe enough.

    Have the characters receive a debuff when a world boss is currently on the map or when fighting a dungeon boss and its minions.
    The thought about that debuff is, that, the higher the level difference upwards between world boss/dungeon boss, the higher percentage of a damage reduction the characters will receive against that world boss and ONLY against it (same with dungeon boss and its minions).

    For example, fighting a level 40 world boss as a lvl 50 character, the character will receive a 10% less damage debuff against that boss.
    Fighting the same boss as a level 60 character, the character will receive a 20% less damage debuff against that boss.
    The point of that thought is, that players up to level 40 will get no penalty in dealing their portion against this particular boss and still have a chance to get there fast enough.

    The debuff could also reach more into the extreme to give a higher lvl difference an exponential stronger debuff, for example 10 level difference the 10% less damage debuff and for 25 level difference a 30% less damage debuff. Again, only against that world boss, not the other regular monsters which run around on the map.

    EDIT: That way, people who already upgraded their gear wouldn't feel too weak when fighting the world bosses and can still see a reason to upgrade their gear for that.

    Well, just a thought.
  • QuilitineQuilitine
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    I don't think completely removing it is the solution, but adjusting it should be something on Nexon's priority list.
  • AtriaWulfAtriaWulf
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    I personally enjoy a fair fight. It gives me a sense that I am not over powered, which I feel trends to make me get bored. However, I think if they do keep it, the rewards for fighting bosses be scaled up as you progress in level. Otherwise it's not really worth killing those bosses is it?
  • SavantHumanSavantHuman
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    sucks. remove it. thank you.
  • FearmypawsFearmypaws
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    edited 3:15PM November 5, 2018
    Honestly remove it would be nice to be honest

    If i want to solo dungeons, i want to get it over quickly as possible right? Dailies or whatever, so why bother fair fight? Cuz it's fun and challenging? Please.... if you went thru hundreds of times and you still think it's FUN to have FAIR FIGHT THERE CUZ it's CHALLENGING?!?!? Lol, Enchanting your weapon 15+ mean nothing but BRAG cuz "FAIR FIGHT" is cool and fun and challenging is like watching goddamn paint wall dry for 5-15 minutes hundreds times.

    world bosses fair fight is pointless plus you have to deal few channel msgs that goes "channel is full now stfu and find another one" What if i want to solo it in other channel where no one is barely there and just get it over quickly as possible? Oh wait, my bad... "FAIR FIGHT" IS FUN AND CHALLENGING IS LIKE WHAT THE ACTUAL FUDGE?

    I don't want to read/hear, "Don't like it, play different game" otherwise you are just wasting time typing this. It's either Be effective and fast or be ineffective and slow.

    Bots... ahh nexon you truly don't know how to take care of this? See guys, if they cannot fix it, this game is going DOWN FAST.

    Trophies, why are they not account wide? Nexon well?!? B.S excuses coming up, Find out next time on dragon ball z!
  • DrYoshiyahuDrYoshiyahu
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    @Fearmypaws:
    world bosses fair fight is pointless
    This is a horribly misguided statement. Fair Fight is incredibly important on world bosses. You can debate Fair Fight on elites and in dungeons til the cows come home, but Fair Fight is objectively necessary on world bosses.

    You know what happens to world bosses in KMS2 where there is no Fair Fight? They get one-shot. A couple of people per channel per hour at the most get the credit for a wold boss kill and everyone else misses out, even if they were there in that channel when the boss spawned. In order to have a chance at beating the boss (and doing any daily quests/missions that require beating the boss) you need to not only camp the spawn location, but you need to have a low enough latency that you can be the first one to hit it.
    SeekerScorpioMiskyKyuukeiyvngcvntRohuntCryoGXSyrusMarufujiTeleQuilitineDeerniss
  • RohuntRohunt
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    edited 10:42PM November 5, 2018
    @Fearmypaws:
    world bosses fair fight is pointless
    This is a horribly misguided statement. Fair Fight is incredibly important on world bosses. You can debate Fair Fight on elites and in dungeons til the cows come home, but Fair Fight is objectively necessary on world bosses.

    You know what happens to world bosses in KMS2 where there is no Fair Fight? They get one-shot. A couple of people per channel per hour at the most get the credit for a wold boss kill and everyone else misses out, even if they were there in that channel when the boss spawned. In order to have a chance at beating the boss (and doing any daily quests/missions that require beating the boss) you need to not only camp the spawn location, but you need to have a low enough latency that you can be the first one to hit it.

    Thank you! I've been saying this for so long. I tell people, "It's not fair." And what sucks-- A lot of people reply with. "So?" or "I don't care. I want to clear the world boss in a few seconds."

    I agree that it does need to get looked at for raids and dungeon stuff possibly. But in the sense of open world activities such as world bosses; Fair fight should stay like it is now.

    We've got awakenings comings that have multipliers in the thousands-- Could you imagine how bad, toxic and ultimately unfriendly the game would get if fair fight was off for stuff like that? You'd have only the elitist guilds that were able to get credit open world bossing as well a people who want to ruin to fun for other people.
  • 93FEETOFSMOKE93FEETOFSMOKE
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    edited 1:08AM November 6, 2018
    I do think fair fight should be nerfed somewhat to make sure higher levels get or at least keep equal edge to lower level players, However the outright removal of fair fight is at base, a bad idea. Fair fight as a safeguard is HEAVILY underestimated when anyone is petitioning its removal, here's some of the reasons why:

    -Measures against hogging/bullying: There are cases in the storyline, that players have to fight elites in the open world, as well as want to fight bosses or other elites in situations outside main questline. If fair fight were removed, it would give less-than-stellar players (LETS NOT FORGET BOTS) the ability to "camp" specific spots and use the entire unhinged DPS and gear power of said player to instantly knock out elites/bosses as they spawn. This will then cause the feature giving loot/exp/kill confirmation to anyone who attacked said elite/boss to be overshadowed by players who can simply keep firing from one spot and instantly take it out.

    -Encouraging team play: Want to get the dye color for the "Life Finds a Way" quest? Want to get quest points toward trophies for the various quests and bosses? As it is, you are going to need a party for Doudon and other boss monsters that appear in the world. This fact encourages players to find groups that share same goals, rather than going up to the bosses, and soloing them into oblivion with superior gear, level, and skill percentage. Hard mode dungeons would be more solo-able, and starting up endgame players would have difficulties finding hard dungeon parties because everyone who would otherwise look for parties could simply solo it.

    -Massive Imbalance as a result of removal: One of my personal favorite things about maplestory 2, is the fact there is no real major imbalance, and players can streamline things like gear and skill point/ability point distribution, but not end up excessively op when retroactively fighting bosses/elites. I feel players who look down on fair fight tend to underestimate that if it were removed, the stats for bosses would most likely have to be redone due to the same players who complained fair fight making things too hard, its removal would make things too easy.

    -A truly fair challenge: To be candid, fair fight is really quite FAIR, as well as difficult and fun. A lot of the fun and purpose of dungeons would be robbed if fair fight on the bosses were to be removed. Fighting the fire dragon would no longer be about how much you polished your fighting style, skill distribution, or weapons (which are by no means P2W since you can get most of what you need from dungeon runs), but, if fair fight were removed, it would be simply about how high level you are, and that's about it. Because of that, gear is less-sought-after, and any +5 murp/MSL/rune gun will do for even the hardest dungeon running. Removing fair fight would take the fun out of dungeon runs, as your character simply has to wait till it is lv 60, rather then work for a higher piercing/damage% or efficient skill/ability setup

    1. Why would anyone farm elite mobs that are tied with the story quest? They give nothing worth your time anyways, and even if this is true you have access to 100 channels to easily avoid this. Players/bots already farm certain spots with unhinged dps as trash mobs don't have fair fight, ever heard of potion solvents?

    2. Most of us agree that world bosses need fair fight, they already die in seconds so I don't see a reason why they shouldn't. It's already hard for new players to find dungeons for hard mode as most people want high gear score players who know the mechanics so they can do speed runs because no one wants to spend 10 to 15 minutes on a dungeon that they've done hundreds of times(not to mention that people have alts). And i'm sorry but I have yet to see a player call any dungeon hard, they're all very easy to master and require little skill, it's just that some of us don't want to be forced to have long boss fights that we've mastered decades ago.

    3. Here's the thing, this is how you want to play the game and that is ok, but this shouldn't be forced on EVERYONE in the game. If you want bosses to always be a challenge then equip gear for the respective level and reset all your attributes and skill points, problem solved, and hey, maybe if this fair fight feature was disabled nexon can create an option where players can enable fair fight in party finder, or maybe they can make it so pugs always have fair fight and people who use party finder can turn it on or off. Also gear prices will be fine, isn't that what the 30 dungeons a week cap is for? No matter how fast you can clear a dungeon you'll still get gear at the same rate as everyone else due to the cap. And to some point you're right, levels would be able to carry you at certain times, but if you're fighting anything remotely close to your level (which most people are doing) this wouldn't be the case. I would also like to add that having fair fight removes the feeling of progressing and even punishes progression in its current state. I personally don't care about the numbers, I don't care about the bragging rights, I just want to feel like i'm progressing in the game. And no that %10 damage increase that you get for enchanting your weapon from +1 to +15 isn't my idea of progressing. It may be progressing by definition but it's not as satisfying as doing say %50 - %100 more damage as it should.

    Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with a challenge, but after you do the same thing over and over again it isn't a challenge anymore, it's just tedious, not to mention that the bosses aren't all that challenging anyways, just big sponges that do tons of easily avoidable damage. (no offense nexon)

    However, I will say that they're trying and I have to commend them for that, they made it so chaos raids have no fair fight so that's a thumbs up, can't see how the 10% damage increase will fix anything but I guess we'll have to wait and see. I personally don't see the reason to use all this man power to focus on a feature that was never asked for to begin with.
  • DarrithDarrith
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    This 84% saying it should be removed must be rigged somehow; I clearly remember Nexon saying in one of their dev blogs they were keeping it because the majority of players thought it was a good thing, or something like that. Right?? Can't fool me, Nexon wouldn't lie to us. :)
    93FEETOFSMOKETele
  • 93FEETOFSMOKE93FEETOFSMOKE
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    Darrith wrote: »
    This 84% saying it should be removed must be rigged somehow; I clearly remember Nexon saying in one of their dev blogs they were keeping it because the majority of players thought it was a good thing, or something like that. Right?? Can't fool me, Nexon wouldn't lie to us. :)

    Glad you have the privilege to have not dealt with maple story 1 nexon
  • FearmypawsFearmypaws
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    edited 11:50AM November 6, 2018
    @Fearmypaws:
    world bosses fair fight is pointless
    This is a horribly misguided statement. Fair Fight is incredibly important on world bosses. You can debate Fair Fight on elites and in dungeons til the cows come home, but Fair Fight is objectively necessary on world bosses.

    You know what happens to world bosses in KMS2 where there is no Fair Fight? They get one-shot. A couple of people per channel per hour at the most get the credit for a wold boss kill and everyone else misses out, even if they were there in that channel when the boss spawned. In order to have a chance at beating the boss (and doing any daily quests/missions that require beating the boss) you need to not only camp the spawn location, but you need to have a low enough latency that you can be the first one to hit it.


    lol what makes you think nexon gives a damn about it? Look around few games they killed it off and what makes you think maplestory 2 will last forever? Hell, what I recall so far bots is becoming overwhelming to nexon n nexon has no fking idea what to do. Yeah, I m speaking about the future if lesser n lesser players plays maplestory 2 n Some of them wanna do dailies n solo or 1-5 man world bosses but damn fair fight’s there cuz “It’s fun, it’s challenging, and it’s retarded.” Who the fk cares about old contents if there’s new contents in future plus Old contents gonna have fair fight n like that you be like cuz it’s fun n challenge and goddamn mind numbing boring n then u gonna regret n be like man I been thru this so many times n I’m so sick of this n u wanna kill it fast asap but nooo fair fight is cool though n i’m dense in my head. An hourly spawn boss? Np tone it down to 15minutes spawn? Wahh wahh too easy get items n crap. What the fk more do you want? Some B.S.

    Like I say, it’s either be effective and fast OR Be goddamn ineffective n slow. You guys can stop acting or pretending why fair fight is good. They could SIMPLY PUT A SWITCH IN THERE AS OPTION. TURN OFF FAIR FIGHT OR TURN IT ON! How is that so hard? Right, your excuses.. Right keep it coming.



  • CryoGXCryoGX
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    Personally I say let fairfight be toggled as a mechanic for manually created dungeon parties, and let this be something that can only be used from level 50+.

    Some people like it, some don't, so let it be something that can be turned off for us that just want to nuke FD for the thousandth time, and left on for whoever wants it.
    93FEETOFSMOKEFearmypaws
  • EternalxEternalx
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    I do agree FF must stay for world bosses, but please nerf further for dungeons. Heck it can stay for Mushmom