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Founder's Pack "Re-run"?

Comments

  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 8,245
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    edited 8:15AM November 4, 2018
    Except it's not, because physical goods have this thing called 'risk' associated with them. In that, creating and stocking a physical item costs money and not selling it, also costs money. The limited availability of physical goods is simply the manufacturers and distributors attempting to match as closely as possible the supply of the item to the current demand. All of these factors do not apply to digital items and any that do are artificially imposed. Nexon has an infinite costless supply of Founder's Packs. There are as many Founder's packs as people want to buy. Every second they do not have a Founder's Pack for someone that wants to buy one, it actually costs them money in a lost sale. Which is the opposite of how physical goods operate almost entirely.
    Again, you don't seem to understand how exclusive works. Making something exclusive rarely has to do with the manufacturer attempting to match the demand. That would not make any sense for figurines that are limited to only 100 in existence. Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me they do that because they only expected 100 people to want it? Are you joking?

    You realize if that was actually true then the price on these items would never go up. The reason they typically sell for so much after the fact is that there is someone who wants it that didn't get it when it was being sold. And I got news for you, the company that originally made it and sold it for $200, isn't making the same that the original buyer is going to make on it. They might be able to sell it for $1,000 or more, simply because it's exclusive and someone, a collector, wants it.

    Why do they do this? It serves no benefit to the company at first glance, right? The truth is, it does benefit them. How? By creating lifelong customers. The type of customers who are going to continue to buy your products. If they took those exclusives and decided to re-release them, they would lose customers. They may make more money in the short term, but they would lose it in the long term because those who are collectors and those who would buy to resell, will no longer do so. The items are worth goes down, and the value to the collector goes down because you never know when they will just add more.

    If you were actually correct about what you are trying to argue, exclusives wouldn't exist.
    So I don't understand how you don't understand that the word exclusivity does not apply to these Founder's Packs, because the exclusivity is simply an artificial aspect when it comes to digital goods.
    All exclusivity is artificial outside of natural objects like a meteor.
    The limit is self-imposed by Nexon. They could choose to re-release these Founder's packs at literally any time at no risk to themselves and only serve to profit from it.
    As can most companies even with physical goods. Do you really think all limited items have high manufacturing costs? Cause, I can assure you ...they really don't. In fact, what makes the costs seem high is the fact they are putting an artificial limit on it. For example, running machines just to make 100 of something costs a lot. Adapting machines to make them also cost a lot. If anything, they would benefit from it more by not making it limited, but they do anyway because people like it. It creates good relations.

    Now, on the other hand, some items do cost a butt ton to make and in that case, that is why they are limited. But this isn't the case for everything. I think a really good example of this is cards, you know for damn sure there are no cards that cost more to make than they are sold for, but yet some of them are limited editions. Why? They clearly could sell more if they were not limited ... right? So why do they do it? Based on your arguments thus far, why on earth would a card manufacture make limited edition cards if it doesn't cost much to make them?

    Because exclusivity sells. The idea of something being exclusive makes people want them more.
    So why shouldn't they? Because you don't want other people owning the same item as you?
    That's the part of this whole anti-Founder's argument that really makes no sense.
    You're trying to protect the exclusivity of these items like they actually have a value, when the only value they have is that you own them and another person doesn't. When you say the word 'exclusive', that's all you could possibly be implying.
    And what you don't seem to understand is that exclusivity matters to people. It doesn't matter you don't comprehend why people like that sort of thing, the fact is, they do and there is nothing you can do or say that will change that. You can whine and complain, throw a fit here on the forums. Name call and use ad hominem and none of that si going to change that people do care about exclusivity. It doesn't matter what the manufacturing process is. It doesn't matter how much monetary value the item has. It doesn't matter if it can't be resold. None of that stuff matters. The only thing that matters is people want the item, and they value that item because it's exclusive.
    Why do you want to deny other people a digital item, with infinite supply that they would still have to pay the exact same amount as you to own?
    Because people like exclusives. I deny other people the items because they didn't buy it when it was available to buy. A founder's pack is a founder's pack, not a general pack that is released every year or whenever a bunch of people cry they wanted it.

    None of what you are saying actually matters when it comes to exclusive items. This is how the world works. Please, for everyone's sake, get over it and move on. It's not going to change.
    What do you gain out of doing that? What does Nexon gain from doing that?
    We gain an item that is exclusive. Nexon gains customers that are willing to come back again and again because they have not lost their trust. People who like exclusives will buy more exclusives and those are the people who are more likely to stick around than those who were unsure on whether or not to buy something or who didn't even know the game existed.
    There's really no actual reason for them to not resell the Founder's Packs.
    There are reasons, you just don't want to accept the reasons. You are a person complaining that you don't get it, like as if your ability to get something factors into the equation. It doesn't. You don't have to get it, these things will still be sold.
    But please continue being irrationally angry about the prospect of it happening.
    I am not angry. I am just proving you wrong. But I understand you need to use ad hominems because you realize you don't have a very good argument. Claim you are arguing agaisnt someone who is just irrational and angry to try and make it seem like you are the one with the better argument. I got news for you though, everyone sees through it.

    ZintackHowlyeCelestialKitsuneLofiVibesMintyliciousSnackCakesHeartdonor
  • JetUppercutJetUppercut
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 5,535
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    Again, you don't seem to understand how exclusive works. Making something exclusive rarely has to do with the manufacturer attempting to match the demand. That would not make any sense for figurines that are limited to only 100 in existence. Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me they do that because they only expected 100 people to want it? Are you joking?

    You realize if that was actually true then the price on these items would never go up. The reason they typically sell for so much after the fact is that there is someone who wants it that didn't get it when it was being sold. And I got news for you, the company that originally made it and sold it for $200, isn't making the same that the original buyer is going to make on it. They might be able to sell it for $1,000 or more, simply because it's exclusive and someone, a collector, wants it.

    Why do they do this? It serves no benefit to the company at first glance, right? The truth is, it does benefit them. How? By creating lifelong customers. The type of customers who are going to continue to buy your products. If they took those exclusives and decided to re-release them, they would lose customers. They may make more money in the short term, but they would lose it in the long term because those who are collectors and those who would buy to resell, will no longer do so. The items are worth goes down, and the value to the collector goes down because you never know when they will just add more.

    If you were actually correct about what you are trying to argue, exclusives wouldn't exist.

    Collector's Items are made to be limited on purpose, for the purpose of making demand exceed supply to give the items more value.
    The company benefits from this because having a highly desirable limited supply ensures that they will sell out and make back all their profits, removing the risk factor from the equation.

    The secondary market is also far more than just 'exclusivity', as every physical item ever manufactured is 'exclusive'. And it very much depends on the item itself whether or not exclusivity factors in things. For something like a card game, reprints may cause the value of earlier prints of the same card to go down. For books, a 1st edition will always be worth more than a brand new paperback of the same book. But I really don't want to have to break down how free market economics works for you, bunny. If I'd looked at who I was quoting before I hit reply on the first post we wouldn't even be here right now.

    As can most companies even with physical goods. Do you really think all limited items have high manufacturing costs? Cause, I can assure you ...they really don't. In fact, what makes the costs seem high is the fact they are putting an artificial limit on it. For example, running machines just to make 100 of something costs a lot. Adapting machines to make them also cost a lot. If anything, they would benefit from it more by not making it limited, but they do anyway because people like it. It creates good relations.

    Now, on the other hand, some items do cost a butt ton to make and in that case, that is why they are limited. But this isn't the case for everything. I think a really good example of this is cards, you know for damn sure there are no cards that cost more to make than they are sold for, but yet some of them are limited editions. Why? They clearly could sell more if they were not limited ... right? So why do they do it? Based on your arguments thus far, why on earth would a card manufacture make limited edition cards if it doesn't cost much to make them?


    Because of risk and risk management. As in, if you make a billion cards and nobody buys them, you back up the supply chain, distributors and stores willing to buy your product dry up because they have shelves of stuff already they can't sell and you go bankrupt with your pile of cardboard. That's why physical goods are limited. Or seasonal. Or there are reprints due to demand. Physical goods work on a completely different level to digital goods because they are physical. The exclusivity of a physical item and a digital item are non-comparable, because one is a limitation of the free market and the other is simply a self-imposed limitation. End of story.
    The Founder's Packs are only limited because Nexon chooses not to sell more of them. You don't want them to sell more because you don't want other people to have these items should they want them. Exclusivity does not apply because for the period that they were sold, there was an unlimited amount of them to be sold and there still are, should Nexon choose to turn them back on again. The only value they hold is that you have one and someone else doesn't. These are irrefutable facts.

    Also, just for posterity, I already have a Founder's Pack. I also have multiple other exclusive digital items that I don't really care that much about. So if you seem to think I'm arguing from this position because I want something I can't have you're very sorely mistaken. I simply see no point in keeping direct purchase digital items exclusive. All it shows off is that you spent up to $100 on the game. Anybody with $100 can do that. It's not really a very prestigious club, so why make it exclusive.
  • AmelgoAmelgo
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    I am a very angry and very dumb person. ♥

    Caution! Not for sensitive Maplers. Proceed at your own risk!
    This isn't even a proper suggestion. A proper suggestion would of been to bring in new Packs similar to those of the Founder's Pack. EX: Novice Pack, Traveler Pack, Expedition Pack, ETC, and what each pack may consist of. What you're doing is more like a demand for a missed opportunity.

    1:
    When MapleStory 2 was announced to get a global version, I was a bit hesitant on it. Having been a long time player of MS1 and seeing what became of that game, I didn't know how MapleStory 2 would fare. I went and signed up for the CBT and did all the roadmap stuff anyway, because MapleStory was a bit of a nostalgic thing for me. Maybe I'd try it for a bit and see what happened. Nexon was behind it, so I didn't have high hopes.

    The Founder's Pack is basically for people who wants to fund and support the game's development during its early stages. In return on doing so, the producer gave out incentives to these fellow Maplers. In your statement you didn't invest because you didn't have any "hope" of Nexon doing an excellent job at it. Whether Nexon or any company is behind it or not shouldn't of affect an upcoming new game at all. This was simply judging a book by its cover.

    I know I know this is not the case for everyone but I believe every Maplers that missed out on this understand the loss and will probably not miss out on future opportunities. Even now they continue to have fun without it.
    2:
    Fast forward to the Founder's Pack. Three different options for early access to the game, but starting cost was $25. I don't know about anyone else, but $25 to get early access to a game I didn't even know if I'd enjoy was a little steep. I also never got into the CBT, so I was going in blind. Regretfully, I decided to wait it out, skip the Founder's Pack, and start playing on the 10th with everyone else.
    This bring us back to point 1 practically. You're funding the game's development. Everything else is just an incentive/perk that the producer feel they should give out for such support. You can think of that $25 as an investment. It can be a bad or good investment depending on how much research you're willing to put into it. There are plenty of reviews, gameplay and even live streams the first 2 days it went into CBT. After that you have CBT2 and after that you have another 2 week of head start to buy the Founder's Pack if you like what you saw. There was an abundance of time but you decided to wait it out and skip Founder's Pack like you said and start playing on launch with everyone else.
    3:
    I'd really be grateful for an opportunity to purchase a Founder's Pack. (You know, the "right" way, without buying someone's account because that's a no-no.)
    You know this statement just really really infuriates me. If Nexon would not open up the opportunity, you would go to the length of going against the ToS, just to get what you want. Why would you even say that if you weren't suggesting otherwise. The right way would of been to support the game during it's development period.
    To everyone that read this:
    I am very sorry to anyone I offended. It was never my intention. I just wanted to point out the fact that this is nothing more than a ruse to stir up the discontent of those that missed out on the Founder's Pack for his own agenda. Reread it if you think otherwise. Again I am very very sorry, I am a very angry and very dumb person after all. ♥

    ZintackHowlyeLofiVibesSnackCakes
  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
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    edited 10:27AM November 4, 2018
    Collector's Items are made to be limited on purpose, for the purpose of making demand exceed supply to give the items more value.
    The company benefits from this because having a highly desirable limited supply ensures that they will sell out and make back all their profits, removing the risk factor from the equation.
    Indeed, and it increases demand because people like exclusive items. But it's not done to try and meet as close to the demand as possible as you seemed to have suggested previously. As I explain, only making 100 of something wouldn't make sense if that was the case.
    The secondary market is also far more than just 'exclusivity', as every physical item ever manufactured is 'exclusive'. And it very much depends on the item itself whether or not exclusivity factors in things. For something like a card game, reprints may cause the value of earlier prints of the same card to go down. For books, a 1st edition will always be worth more than a brand new paperback of the same book. But I really don't want to have to break down how free market economics works for you, bunny. If I'd looked at who I was quoting before I hit reply on the first post we wouldn't even be here right now.
    And the reason the value of these reprints go down is that the item becomes less valued by the customers. Because exclusivity has value.
    Quite frankly, it almost sounds like you do understand it, but then you somehow discard what you understand and pretend it doesn't matter.
    Because of risk and risk management. As in, if you make a billion cards and nobody buys them, you back up the supply chain, distributors and stores willing to buy your product dry up because they have shelves of stuff already they can't sell and you go bankrupt with your pile of cardboard. That's why physical goods are limited. Or seasonal.
    If it was such a risk then why not make all items limited? I am not quite following what your argument is here, or how it makes any sense. Clearly, there is a demand for these items if they are making it. Why only make 100 of a figurine? Cause if they make 1,000 they may not sell them all? Well, that applies to literally everything. So what makes these limited items different than any other item that they decide to limit them? Where does the extra risk come from?

    I don't see how one card is any riskier than another. Unless it was a card no one wanted, then why would you even make it, to begin with? You would make far more by making something people do want.
    Or there are reprints due to demand. Physical goods work on a completely different level to digital goods because they are physical. The exclusivity of a physical item and a digital item are non-comparable, because one is a limitation of the free market and the other is simply a self-imposed limitation. End of story.
    It's not "end of story", because I disagree. I don't think there is much of a difference that you seem to think there is. Exclusivity is something that exists because people like exclusives and that is something that applies to both physical and digital goods. If you were correct, then why do exclusives seem to work the same in reality? We wouldn't be here even arguing if what you said was true. But clearly, people are still willing to go after digital exclusive items all the same.
    The Founder's Packs are only limited because Nexon chooses not to sell more of them. You don't want them to sell more because you don't want other people to have these items should they want them. Exclusivity does not apply because for the period that they were sold, there was an unlimited amount of them to be sold and there still are, should Nexon choose to turn them back on again. The only value they hold is that you have one and someone else doesn't. These are irrefutable facts.
    Again, this literally goes for all exclusive items, even physical items. The limit on how many are made is chosen by the company who makes them. There can be an unlimited amount if they just keep the operations going.

    I think you are confused. I get that there are no real costs to duplicate digital items, while there is a cost to creating physical goods. So technically there is more risk involved when selling physical goods compared to digital goods. You could keep digital sales always active and you really wouldn't be losing anything. But if sales begin to slow down on physical goods, there is a point where manufacturing them no longer makes any sense because it's unprofitable. But this literally has nothing to do with exclusivity and I think that is where you are confused. I think you are trying to just take a characteristic of physical goods, and act like exclusives must have that characteristic.

    You are wrong though. Again, if you were right things wouldn't work as they do. People don't care that a company can just flip a switch and make an unlimited amount of an item. People still like their exclusives, and as such companies cater to that desire. Again, the manufacturing really has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    Also, just for posterity, I already have a Founder's Pack. I also have multiple other exclusive digital items that I don't really care that much about. So if you seem to think I'm arguing from this position because I want something I can't have you're very sorely mistaken. I simply see no point in keeping direct purchase digital items exclusive. All it shows off is that you spent up to $100 on the game. Anybody with $100 can do that. It's not really a very prestigious club, so why make it exclusive.
    Again ... because people like exclusives. How many times do I have to repeat that for you to understand it? Just because you don't see any value in it, doesn't mean other people don't see value in it as well.

    To some people, there is value in having things other people don't. Westworld quote "If you don't see the value in that, then you are not the businessman I thought you were." .. .think I got the quote right.

    It works because it works. Again, you don't need to understand why or see the point. People like exclusives, period. I don't see how this is hard to understand, but whatever.

    ZintackHowlyeSnackCakes
  • AlexstrazsaAlexstrazsa
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    Amelgo wrote: »
    In your statement you didn't invest because you didn't have any "hope" of Nexon doing an excellent job at it. Whether Nexon or any company is behind it or not shouldn't of affect an upcoming new game at all. This was simply judging a book by its cover.

    If you're familiar with Nexon's history and what happened to the original MapleStory, I'm sure you'd realize this was a very reasonable position to take. I am by far not the only person surprised that the MS2 team isn't horrible. Just look at reddit comments after every developer update praising them.
    Amelgo wrote: »
    You're funding the game's development.

    Nexon is a giant company with tons of funding from their previous ventures. This was not "funding" the game's development. It would've been released no matter how many Founder's Packs were sold or not. They aren't some indie company that relies on crowdfunding and audience donation.
    Amelgo wrote: »
    There are plenty of reviews, gameplay and even live streams the first 2 days it went into CBT.

    I'll give you that, partially. But I'd contest that you can't really know if you'll like a game unless you actually play it. Streams and reviews only count for so much.
    Amelgo wrote: »
    The right way would of been to support the game during it's development period.

    So basically the right way was a potentially stupid financial decision that, based on past experiences with Nexon, I'd most likely regret. Got it.
    Amelgo wrote: »
    I just wanted to point out the fact that this is nothing more than a ruse to stir up the discontent of those that missed out on the Founder's Pack for his own agenda

    My agenda of... wanting to give Nexon money? And trying to figure out how many people agreed with me on it?

    Interesting way to interpret my post.
  • BladeSoul69BladeSoul69
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    I'm confused here. What I got from this argument.
    People for bringing the Founder's Pack back are saying that many people missed the opportunity and Nexon will profit greatly for bringing it back.
    People against bringing the Founder's Pack back are saying that bringing it back will tarnish its exclusivity which is what made it special.

    What I'm confused about is why shouldn't there be a "Supporter's Pack" that acts as a one-time purchase that comes with slightly varied content. So instead of a Founder's title in red, you get a Supporter's title in blue. That way you get the same deal, but without taking value away from the original. Maybe make it slightly cheaper because of no early access.
    ZintackHowlyeSapShayarahlaTeSalveiSnackCakes
  • NaishoDayoNaishoDayo
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    As someone who purchased the legendary founder pack... because why not, my opinion may be bias. I won't be surprised if they do decide to release founder pack again. I am not exactly against it nor am I supportive of it. After a month in... would people who then purchase the pack really be considered "Founders?" It's makes lot more sense to release different packs that can be purchased. Though I'm not exactly advocating this either, since my wallet is kind of empty.

    That said, if I never bought founders... I, too, would want them to re-release it another time. Not because it's right/expected and should be done, but because I shamelessly want the pack that I never bought when it was available.
    ZintackHowlye
  • AlexstrazsaAlexstrazsa
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    What I'm confused about is why shouldn't there be a "Supporter's Pack" that acts as a one-time purchase that comes with slightly varied content. So instead of a Founder's title in red, you get a Supporter's title in blue. That way you get the same deal, but without taking value away from the original. Maybe make it slightly cheaper because of no early access.

    At this point I'm down for that too. Nexon hasn't mentioned anything about another run and we're nearly a month out, so it's more likely that if they do anything resembling the FP it'll be something like your suggestion. A Supporter Pack probably wouldn't be time limited either, so anyone could pick it up whenever.
    ZintackHowlye
  • DarrithDarrith
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    Saraneth wrote: »
    How does it hurt you in any way if they allow us to buy founders packs apart from your epeen?
    Saraneth wrote: »
    Tera Online, you can still buy founder keys for that game of which I did and it doesn't appear to have hurt anyone. Are players of MS2 just that sensitive?

    If not having the founder’s pack upsets you so much, maybe you shouldn’t be playing.
    HowlyeSnackCakes
  • JumballiJumballi
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    I'd like to get some of the cosmetics, the stuff that has 0 impact on the game
  • ShayarahlaShayarahla
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    edited 10:21AM November 5, 2018
    puzzling how you can judge a game before release when KMS2 already showed all its goodness
    LofiVibesSnackCakes
  • WTBWTB
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    While I understand the regret from not having bought the Founder's Packs, that is the risk one took when they chose not to buy it.

    I do not think Nexon will re-release it nor do I think they should. There will be plenty of opportunities for folks to financially support the site and receive exclusives moving forward. A "Supporter's Pack," perhaps as a reward for a certain amount of Premium Club membership being bought, that offers a title/nameplate/outfit/etc would be a great idea.
    ZintackHowlyeMintyliciousSnackCakes
  • SapSap
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    I do not believe they'll release an early supporter pack for us. If they had the intention to do so they would've already done it by now. It's pretty much already been a month after launch.
  • EinoEino
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    edited 6:33AM November 6, 2018
    By the way, Nexon has been giving the "Joddy Squad" Twitch stream team Founder's Packs to give away.

    If you're very desperate for one, follow all the stream members and join their giveaways.

    For example:

    mSXaNfj.jpg
  • BladeSoul69BladeSoul69
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    Sap wrote: »
    I do not believe they'll release an early supporter pack for us. If they had the intention to do so they would've already done it by now. It's pretty much already been a month after launch.

    I was thinking the Supporter's Pack wouldn't be a limited thing. Just a one-time purchase (per account) for people who want to give a lot to the game.
  • SherriSherri
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    Sherri wrote: »
    but the price needs to be lowered because I don't $25 on hand

    that would be extraordinarily unfair for founders who got it when it was a thing for 100 dollars, because that would mean they spent 100 for nothing

    I mean.. they were the ones to chose to throw $100 at the game, sooo..
  • ZintackZintack
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    Sherri wrote: »
    Sherri wrote: »
    but the price needs to be lowered because I don't $25 on hand

    that would be extraordinarily unfair for founders who got it when it was a thing for 100 dollars, because that would mean they spent 100 for nothing

    I mean.. they were the ones to chose to throw $100 at the game, sooo..

    If they get rereleased for cheaper with same items...
    “I mean.. they were the ones who bought it not thinking these packs would end up getting rereleased for cheaper, sooo....”
    Yeah, you’re not getting early access/name reserves anymore so cheaper would make sense... but I have some friends who just bought it for items not early access. So yeah, it totally would be unfair to any of them, not just 100$ ones. I’m sure my friends (or anyone else who did the same) would of waited if they knew that something like that would happen.

    Honestly, I wouldn’t mind if they made another pack with different items at a cheaper price because like said above you’re not getting e.a/n.r anymore so it’d make sense. I’m sure they’d still make good money cause some comments here, both founders pack buyers or not, are saying they’d buy a new pack.