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The REAL Thief Build (Boss + Mob) Explained

SlightlyGrimSlightlyGrim
Maplestory 2 Rep: 770
Posts: 27
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edited 3:41PM November 1, 2018 in Thief
Hello Friendos!

Today I want to share my build and tell you why this is actually the best BOSS build you can do. Now, right away, just from looking at the picture youre going to cricnge BUT!
The text on meso guard is incorrect and its effect is so much better than you all think. So lets get into this.

PS. I did dmg testing for a couple hours in guild house about 2 weeks back and decided to share this with you guys. Also, a nice youtuber I know will also be turning the build into a video. make sure to sub to his Channel #Flueve

bzZ7mcy.jpg

So, after doing testing, I decided this was the best course of action. Here is what I discovered.

I cleared my skill page and only put points into POISON VIAL
I then set up my dmg bar and threw the vial, I then hit the reset button every time the DMG would tick. with my +13 and +11 I was hitting 19k on average per tick
I then maxed out RUTHLESS GUILL
doing the same test, my damage only went from 19k to 19k-20k per tick.
Then I took all points out and placed them into mesoguard.

Now, here is the interesting part about mesoguard. The effect reads that, with a level 8 skill, youll spend 777 meso and gain 60 what ever dmg reduction for 4 seconds BUUUUT this isnt all the skill does and ill link you a picture.
If you activate cunning tactics before you use mesoguard, not only does its cost become 0 BUT the skill changes completely.

unknown.png

If you read the left it tells you the effect but if you read the right hand side, this is the effect at level 7 with cunning activated. As you can clearly see it gives a HUGE damage buff but thats not all, it also increases from only a 4 second duration to a 12 second duration.

Knowing this, I did more testing and found out that this dmg actually increases your poison stack DOT as well,

So, my initial 19k dmg per hit vial, after casting cunning then mesoguard then throwing vial, resting dmg per tick discovered that my ticks were now hitting for 26k per hit.

But thats not all! turns out that you can actually throw the vial first then use cunning meso and the moment meso activates, even though the vial is already ticking the mobs, the dmg still increases.

So i dug further. I used mesoguard before throwing the vial and then the second i threw vial i cast SURPRISE ATTACK. turns out, i was actually hitting an extra 60k on SURPRISE ATTACK by using mesoguard.

Now imagine 5 poison stacks plus vial + MG ... yeah! you know where Im going with this!!!!


Now, changing the pace here a bit. I also was doing some testing with a mobbing build and found that VC just wasnt doing enough damage for my liking, even with 9 points into the DEFT COMBATANT skill. So i decided to try a different build and came to the same conclusion.

14xfdae.jpg

Rather than using 19 points into 2 skills, I actually only had to use 10 points into BLADE DANCE to actually get an increase of 20k-40k per hit on the dummies in the guild house.

allowing me to use those extra points on retatiation which Ive found really useful for some specific dungeons that have constant ticking aoes or just lots of ADDS such as hard mode TRIS/Link.

Also, when "Mobbing" I mean things such as farming Treva, if there are 2 or more mobs all you have to do is hold down the BLADE DANCE KEY you dont actually need to use your auto attack ability (double slash) as you have a passive skill that regens your spirit. hitting 2 or more mobs with the skill will allow you to regen more spirit than you are using.

Also, Blade Dance hits 5 more enemies than VC does on top of doing more dmg per hit ALSO Blade Dance pushing mobs away from you allowing you to survive just that much longer!

----
I could go more into detail as I've found a few other things but you get the gist of what I'm saying.
Tst these out yourself and come here with your findings and comment below!
----
Long story short, test out your abilities before you just follow a guide. I spent the first long while wondering why my damage was terrible till i did some testing and it turned out that most of the guides I came across online weren't "correct" and you can actually increase your DMG output pretty significantly with this new build.

Hope You Enjoy!

EDIT:
Extra for you.
using the poison vial on 1 mob with and without the use of mesoguard.
Without =
KlDvMfZ.jpg

With =
9zjMIZ6.jpg
  1. Was this useful?37 votes
    1. Yes
       30% (11 votes)
    2. No
       27% (10 votes)
    3. Testing this Now
       16% (6 votes)
    4. Incorrect
       27% (10 votes)

Comments

  • OcculoOcculo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 835
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    I think it is nice you are experimenting and everything. I really don't like the first build. It looks like a poison build but no ruthless guile or haste. Points are moved to Mind Breaker and Mesoguard. I just don't see how this can really be better tbh. But i haven't tested it yet.

    Now the second build i can see being pretty useful for mobbing. I do like Blade Dance and the Retaliation passive, they are fun to use. And can be really useful in a ton of scenarios. But again i don't see Mesoguard being extremely useful for a mobbing build, especially if you are just going from pack to pack or even farming treva. You may not always have it up when you need it and i feel those points could be spent elsewhere.

    I think these are interesting though and when i have time i will test them out.

  • KyuukeiKyuukei
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,095
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    edited 8:17PM November 1, 2018
    http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/39026/list-of-cunning-effects
    That the damage boost helps with poison vial damage is no surprise at all and also dislike both of the presented builds.
    Doesn't fit my style of fighting also am dealing more damage without surprise attack.
    Maybe someone else will like it. *shrugs*

    Testing it out.
    single target:
    My build: 90k dps
    Suggested build 1: 78,5k
    Suggested build 2:52.8k dps

    AoE 3 targets:
    My build: 185k dps
    Suggested build 1: 175,7k dps
    Suggest build 2: 267k dps
    Clear winner is the last build there

    But my build is for single target. With my multitarget build I could get in the same time 305k dps just by adding poison vial to it but still got a better single target damage with better cunning proc rates as well more poisons.
    Don't want to talk other builds good or bad, but it really doesn't fit my gameplay. Still wish you good luck on your journey as a thief
  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    edited 7:26PM November 1, 2018
    I just simply don't like mesoguard cause you have to cunning it. If it had that effect without cunning I could confidentally macro it as a passive like for example haste. But to actively cunning it every 60 seconds is just not my thing. I don't like active passives where you have to go out of your way to actually get working.


    That being said maybe if it's uptime ratio was a bit more favorable(uptime about 50% or more of the downtime) I'd try it.
  • VendalVendal
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    Although some of your info is good you greatly overate mesoguard. It is strong but that 30% is just not actually worth it because of it's extremely minimal uptime.(12/60) Especially on that first build. Also Surprise attack is fun and all but in my tests I've found that dps is almost always higher, with less stress, if you just let the DoTs play out and use rutheless guile ESPECIALLY with VC as the main damage dealer.
    Does anyone know if rutheless guile effects the surprise attack dmg? I'd be really interested to use this. Cause if it does than hands down easily Rutheless guile will show you a greater output on all of your attacks.

    Your blade dance section is good, and yes if you arent using double slash for cunning procs, and you are hitting enough enemies to maintain spirit, it will definitely out damage VC. (BD and SK hit for 2x what their % values show I think you know, but just in case you didn't thats why their output is pretty boss)

    Seriously tho I cant get over how strong some people think mesoguard is. I promise if you test it out over a period of a minute to see the exact average dps gain it has it's pretty abysmal. at 20% effectiveness and 30% bonus it's only a 6%(20% of 30%) dmg increase for 8 skill points. Thats not account for the use of cunning it needs, nor the mobility of a boss possibly wasting your 12 seconds while in a dashing phase etc. Points would be much better spent in deft combatant(if VC) or rutheless guile.

  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    edited 6:46AM November 2, 2018
    Rutheless guile from what I've been told only affects the actual hit, not the poison explosion triggered sadly for SA. But thankfully rutheless guile stacks twice, even tested it myself. And not really feeling blade dance out damages double guile VC tbh. Maybe in group situations but VC has better damage sustain in single situations, ignoring maybe kandura at most unless someone else draws accuracy debuff agro thieves are usually stuck taking it's debuff agro (so it doesn't go towards the rest of party) where potentially attempting to dodge said debuff would be better. And vicious can hit vertically, potentially allowing jumping down a block and attacking for even kandura.
  • SlightlyGrimSlightlyGrim
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    edited 4:14AM November 2, 2018
    Maybe I'm just used to it that I find it better. I actually almost never have any issues with proc timing

    I also did a dmg test with the guild today when we were running hard mode dungeon.

    I still came out with 12.9mil dmg against 2 assassin's who only out damaged me by 200,000 damage by end of run.

    And yes all our weapons main hand were the same +
  • FerrionFerrion
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    edited 2:43PM November 2, 2018
    Vendal wrote: »

    Because MGP IS better especially when taking into account your other buffs as well as priest's Holy Cross, and then the opportunity needs of both.

    First we'll talk buffs, this is in regards to skill buffs. Not sure if piercing and such do this too, but I know skills do. That is they stack via multiplication, not addition.
    First, a damage test for evidence.
    This is ~2min up time on each
    Poison Vial median with no buffs: 3,232
    Poison Vial median with Haste+MGP: 5,053
    Additive our buffs would be 50%, but Multiplicative they're 55.76%. The test amount was 56.34% Likely just maple rounding up here? as after 120 ticks for each test, the highest and lowest for both tests should have appeared.

    Now opportunity
    Haste + Retal(10) = 39.24% bonus damage
    Haste+ MGP(8) = 55.76% bonus damage
    Not huge at first glance. Provided you can get retal to proc twice in a minute you should out DPS MGP. But this takes additional cunning and the right opportunities to proc it and then the time to abuse it. That is, we're talking a fair bit more of solid DPSing time to compete with something that just needs 12s of opening.

    I've run both in FD a good handful of times all the way through, but not with a consistent group besides here and there but haven't noticed Retal outdoing MGP
    So I did what I could and ran 3 short solo tests of FD for each skill
    Here were my results. Accidentally kept an extra point in back-step but a loss of less than 1% doesn't mean much.
    The third retal run is the most important. In that run I repeatedly failed the ~82% dodge chance unlike the first two where I maybe had one failed roll. Thus I gave up cunning which has a raw value of about 49,500 damage(Empowered Poison Edge) , I took a hit I otherwise could have just side stepped, and didn't get anything for it. Even a buff.

    Now, the reason it's important is it brings about what we're paying. With that "payment" of about 49,500, if we were to just consider empowered PE it would take 5 full casts with cunning, doing ~10,500 extra each cast to break past and have done more damage than what we gave up. Now at 2s per full PE cast and needing cunning each time, that's not happening. Obviously we have more than just empowered PE but it gives us a time frame of what you need to achieve; especially when you take into account that Double Slash does about half the damage of regular PE, so droughts are heavy here.

    Now let's look at MGP. We spend our 49,500
    MGP makes empowered PE deal 18,661 extra damage. This time we only need 3 empowered PE's to break even. A much easier order to fill, thus we get more of our buff time as just pure BONUS and not payment. Then you take into account that this gap between the two skills widens more and more as you introduce other buffs like holy cross and murgapoth due to the multiplicative nature of buffs.
    Another thing to keep in mind is that MGP costs 0 spirit, Blade Dance takes 26 spirit. It may refresh that amount and then some upon proc'ing Retaliation, but you still NEED that spirit initially. Usually not that big of an issue but this initial cost can come up, especially given haste constantly bleeding our spirit if we're not wailing away.


    So do we take the 12s skill that breaks past its cost quickly?

    or

    The 12s skill that that takes longer to break past its costs, that you'll need to do a second time(or more) to beat out skill one, and that may very well fail to activate?

    Keep in mind, your priest's Holy Cross is on a 2m cooldown, and only lasts about 12s itself.



    BIG ADDITION EDIT:

    I was really tired when writing this out and forgot to calculate, "What if you're able to hit with blade dance(Retal proccer)?"
    I realized as soon as I had laid down for the night that I omitted it, so here is the retal calc including the damage of blade dance

    Pay 49,500
    Blade dance(rank 2) immediately does ~5,750 average, and leaves us ~11.5s of buff time.
    Thing is though(and maybe why it didn't cross my mind last night?) we still need *drum roll*
    4.122 casts of empowered PE to reach our breaking point.

    -- Final comparison of empowered pe's needed --
    Retal no blade dance hits: 4.71 empowered PE's
    Retal w/ blade dance hitting: 4.122 empowered PE's
    MGP: 2.65 empowered PE's
    Even with my accidental but still irritating omission, the numbers are still in favor of MGP
    SlightlyGrim
  • SlightlyGrimSlightlyGrim
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    edited 6:46AM November 2, 2018
    Vendal wrote: »
    Although some of your info is good you greatly overate mesoguard. It is strong but that 30% is just not actually worth it because of it's extremely minimal uptime.(12/60) Especially on that first build. Also Surprise attack is fun and all but in my tests I've found that dps is almost always higher, with less stress, if you just let the DoTs play out and use rutheless guile ESPECIALLY with VC as the main damage dealer.
    Does anyone know if rutheless guile effects the surprise attack dmg? I'd be really interested to use this. Cause if it does than hands down easily Rutheless guile will show you a greater output on all of your attacks.

    Your blade dance section is good, and yes if you arent using double slash for cunning procs, and you are hitting enough enemies to maintain spirit, it will definitely out damage VC. (BD and SK hit for 2x what their % values show I think you know, but just in case you didn't thats why their output is pretty boss)

    Seriously tho I cant get over how strong some people think mesoguard is. I promise if you test it out over a period of a minute to see the exact average dps gain it has it's pretty abysmal. at 20% effectiveness and 30% bonus it's only a 6%(20% of 30%) dmg increase for 8 skill points. Thats not account for the use of cunning it needs, nor the mobility of a boss possibly wasting your 12 seconds while in a dashing phase etc. Points would be much better spent in deft combatant(if VC) or rutheless guile.

    I agree but disagree since mesoguard works on all my skills i usually use it only when ive thrown vial used cunning then stacked 5. i wait for the proc from my main attack and then i use meso then i full out burst with dash, ss, then my surprise attack. since i have 10 points into dash attk increase, without meso guard it does around 50k dmg, so an increase of 34% on that, plus my kick which does more! plus then an almost 400k dmg from surprise.

    By this time, I throw another vial and my cunning is almost off cooldown.

    I dont have it running at all times. but i find that the effect gives way more than ruthless ever will.

    I did some testing with my guild last night (and remember ive been using this build for 2 weeks now so I am used to how everything works)
    And the 2 assassins, who both had same weapon main +13 as me, only ended up beating me by 200,000 by the end of the run of a hard mode dungeon. and that had me at 12.9 mil and the highest dmg of them both sitting at juuuust low 13m

    It takes a while to get used to a new build, perhaps people are just not grasping it right away on how it works??
  • CactrotCactrot
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    This is a joke post, right?

    The OP clearly has no idea how Guile works, and the 12.9m is meaningless without context.
    Meowitzer
  • SlightlyGrimSlightlyGrim
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    Cactrot wrote: »
    This is a joke post, right?

    The OP clearly has no idea how Guile works, and the 12.9m is meaningless without context.

    awesome. your comment was of so much use to the post.
    Cirka
  • glaphenglaphen
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    Ruthless Guile is the best skill Thieves even have, I don't see how you can make a build without it. It doesn't increase the damage of your skills so testing DPS through poison ticks is dumb in the first place. Ruthless Guile makes a 2nd hit on any attack skill hits that does that % of damage, and it does it per poison so with both PE and PV it does 22% per hit, so your basic attack will do 49x2+22x2 and VC 62x5+22x5.

    Haste is the 2nd best skill Thieves have so once again I don't see how you do damage, especially with poison builds that need cunning procs do anything, even moreso Surprise Attack
    .
    Personally I can't ever do more damage in test with Surprise Attack to just spamming PE and PV. Though I also can't seem to do more damage with VC compared to just spamming PE, they tend to be almost equal if not less since you can get unlucky and let poison drop from no cunning.

    PE benefits from not dropping poison stacks since it reapplies the poison on each hit, so dropping poison means 200% less damage over PE. PE does 6 hits for 104%x4+208%+256%+22%x6+100%x5 for 1512% multiplier with cunning, 1012% without.

    MGP may give a ton of damage but it's only 20% uptime so it's crap 9 points for 6.4% damage.

    Personally I max out Cunning Tactics and feel people underestimate the lowered cooldown and higher spirit gain on PE builds, 35 spirit is just enough to cast PE with haste on if you are even slightly above 0 spirit. Maxed SK does 512% extra per 12 seconds extra damage compared with 2, while one cast of cunning PE does 1512% and level 1 CT requires you to be at a high spirit already to recast PE.
  • SugarspoonSugarspoon
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    I have never understood the purpose of maxing out poisons while using Surprise Attacks since the skill removes poisons anyways and it will be your main focus to just put up poisons and remove them straight away. I made a post earlier in a build discussion thread regarding my build which focused on keeping up poisons and letting them tick while doing other stuff to do damage like somersault and found out that mesoguard is a really good skill, but it's very limiting compared to the haste buff which surpasses it in every single way since the uptime is 100%.

    Mesoguard is amazing for burst, but if you have to get rid of haste at the same time, it just aint worth it in a real boss situation.
    The haste buff also increases damage by 17% and movement/attackspeed by 22%, which is amazing for melee.
    Even if I had points over to grab mesoguard I would probably still not grab it since it requires cunning for the damage boost. which I want to use to increase damage and apply poison for my poison edge. It's too unpredictable in my opinion. Sure, you can use Cunning Tactics to instantly activate it, but if you use it for that it might take a while until you get the next cunning if you are unlucky =/

    In real scenarios I prefer maxing out poisons, Ruthless Guile, Somersault and Haste while ignoring Surprise Attack.
    Somersault doesnt have near as much damage as Surprise Attack, but at least you don't have to waste time reapplying poisons and you get a much simpler rotation, which makes playing the game much more comfortable in the long run while still dealing great damage with less chance of messing up the rotation.
  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    edited 2:35PM November 2, 2018
    Surprise attack you're suppose to use it when the poisons are about to run out, but as I said elsewhere, it's just an annoying thing, it's not like diablo 3's current Witch doctor where you're able to massively extend poison duration and the trigger consumes a lot of the damage to deal it immediately. It does bonus damage per stack making it only good when the poison is about to run out or knowing you can reapply it.

    Surprise attack isn't a bad move, just as it currentlly stands:

    -You're forced to put full 6 points in both edge and vial. Surprise attack will normally break even with them due to how much points you're minimally forced to have in them.

    -While both poisons are maxed with maxed surprise I hear it still breaks even vs when not using surprise attack? Needs confirmation (I'm assuming they tested spamming surprise, letting the poisons almost run out while using surprise, and just keeping the poisons up by themselves)

    -Using it when the poisons are about to run out means you aren't casting the skill for 10 seconds or so(awakening is better cause the CD is increased for far more damage from what I hear, imo it does address this issue)

    -Can't always reapply point after each surprise use if spammed(Again awakening extends the downtime meaning you might be able to more reliably reapply)

    -From what I hear at least, the poison trigger bonus damage counts as poison and is not boosted by poison guile

    -Poison doesn't spread like a plague or return to you to seek the nearest target once the first applied dies. It isn't really a problem in maple cause of how the stages are set up but such a thing did help diablo 3's witch docter which has a very similar playstyle. But again diablo 3, you gotta run mob to mob to mob, not just one area like maple. So maple thieve most likely doesn't really need such a feature.

    In conclusion, a lot of issues if all information is proper and correct. Awakening version alliviates some of it, but it's still going to be a held back a bit.

    Possibly reasonable fixes, I already had a skill point distribution idea elsewhere, just need surprise attack to fully count for poison guile. That way once awakening come the only thing holding back surprise attack is just asking yourself "Do you want to/can you constantly reapply poison?"

    However this is coming from someone who doesn't surprise attack anymore, because quite frankly even if it had these fixes/awakening version I got tired of that witch doctor-esque playstyle.
  • StabbieStabbie
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    However this is coming from someone who doesn't surprise attack anymore, because quite frankly even if it had these fixes/awakening version I got tired of that witch doctor playstyle.

    I also dont use SA anymore and I do more damage ... Check the post I just made about an easier build that helped me do quite a bit more dps!
  • SlightlyGrimSlightlyGrim
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    edited 2:47PM November 2, 2018
    glaphen wrote: »
    MGP may give a ton of damage but it's only 20% uptime so it's crap 9 points for 6.4% damage.

    what are you on about? 9 points for 6.4% dmg ?? first off, the skill caps at level 8 since you need 62 to get 9.
    second, it gives 34% dmg at 8 not 6.4 .. the 6.4% is the increase to your defense. ..
  • FerrionFerrion
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    edited 3:00PM November 2, 2018
    To quote a post I made in the past:
    "Enhanced PE when target is already poisoned: 29,404
    This is slash damage + poison reprocing There is an additional 11,851 damage from regular PE tics in-between slashes
    Final total: 41,255 damage

    Enhanced SA with poisoned target: 30,805
    This is slash damage + detonation from both poison types. There is an additional tic of poison for 2260 that occurs right before detonation.
    Final Total: 33,065 damage"

    This test didn't have Vial on the target when testing PE, just for clarity's sake. With PV on you'd get about another 3,700 in poison tics
    I also did not have points in guile for the test, again for clarity, anyways..

    Keep in mind this is 10 points you're taking out just for this skill, which does 80% of the damage PE would deal with cunning, AND you're tossing all your stacks for it.
    So if you're in a situation where say the enemy is gonna dart around, run away, etc. It's still better to just spend your cunning on PE, especially since you've now added 12 more seconds to it which will make the difference between the two all the larger.

    Even for mobbing, Blade Dance out performs SA
  • glaphenglaphen
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    edited 3:04PM November 2, 2018
    Surprise attack you're suppose to use it when the poisons are about to run out, but as I said elsewhere, it's just an annoying thing, it's not like diablo 3's current Witch doctor where you're able to massively extend poison duration and the trigger consumes a lot of the damage to deal it immediately. It does bonus damage per stack making it only good when the poison is about to run out or knowing you can reapply it.

    Surprise attack isn't a bad move, just as it currentlly stands:

    -You're forced to put full 6 points in both edge and vial. Surprise attack will normally break even with them due to how much points you're minimally forced to have in them.

    -Using it when the poisons are about to run out means you aren't casting the skill for 10 seconds or so(awakening is better cause the CD is increased for far more damage from what I hear, imo it does address this issue)

    -Can't always reapply point after each surprise use if spammed(Again awakening extends the downtime meaning you might be able to more reliably reapply)

    -From what I hear at least, the poison trigger bonus damage counts as poison and is not boosted by poison guile

    In conclusion, a lot of issues if all information is proper and correct. Awakening version alliviates some of it, but it's still going to be a held back a bit.

    Surprise Attack is a terrible skill right now, with awakening it's supposed to be buffed hard with some passive that specifically buffs it and a skill that instantly applies both poisons
    glaphen wrote: »
    MGP may give a ton of damage but it's only 20% uptime so it's crap 9 points for 6.4% damage.

    what are you on about? 9 points for 6.4% dmg ?? first off, the skill caps at level 8 since you need 62 to get 9.
    second, it gives 34% dmg at 8 not 6.4 .. the 6.4% is the increase to your defense. ..

    You have to put an extra wasted point into Quick Step, so 9 points, 6.4% is the damage it gives when you divide 32 by 5, which is the average damage it actually gives, even if it is 34% that is 6.8% damage for 9 points, I don't know since I didn't bother to log in to check and the skill calculator lists 32%. Also that average damage is truly lower than that since it eats up a cunning proc per minute, you probably don't even get 20 cunnings a minute so a single PE would possibly out damage it in a proper build, the only scenario it could be used is with the priest buff but that is also only truly good on VC builds.
  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    Also what is this priest buff being compare to mesoguard? I might not know priest but whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it applies to more than one person. Comparing it to a personal buff is not equitable. Idk the cap it has but potentially 4-10+ people are benefitting from it not just 1, more than justifying it's terrible downtime.
    I'm not saying any other thing is invalid just saying comparing a group buff to solo buff will never be the same equal value in any scenario.

    Personally with all the recommendations I just might buy another skill page and test out poison edge. I was gonna wait until I got enough free credits to grab another skill page. But all the talk over using it as a core even with the SP cost is really interesting. Albeit sadly can't macro it cause macro won't work with certain skills unless it's enough for the full combo.
  • glaphenglaphen
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    Also what is this priest buff being compare to mesoguard? I might not know priest but whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it applies to more than one person. Comparing it to a personal buff is not equitable. Idk the cap it has but potentially 4-10+ people are benefitting from it not just 1, more than justifying it's terrible downtime.
    I'm not saying any other thing is invalid just saying comparing a group buff to solo buff will never be the same equal value in any scenario.

    Personally with all the recommendations I just might buy another skill page and test out poison edge. I was gonna wait until I got enough free credits to grab another skill page. But all the talk over using it as a core even with the SP cost is really interesting. Albeit sadly can't macro it cause macro won't work with certain skills unless it's enough for the full combo.

    I don't think anyone compares them, they say it is good in combination with, as the priest buff gives 19% attack speed, 19% attack and 19 spirit per second making it possible to spam VC continuously and if you have MGP on during it the damage would be amazing, but it is only once per 3 minutes.
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    I'm confused. First you talk about how poison vial ticks get boosted by meso guard, then you immediately blow up those empowered ticks with Surprise Attack? I get that both are empowered, but Surprise Attack nullifies the majority of Poison Vial ticks if you blow it up immediately, which you have to do to make maximum use of meso (get off 2 SA in the time frame).

    I've tested the build, total damage over a minute, compared dps, and it doesn't really match up to other builds even when you get off 2 surprise attacks with meso guard on. Personally I got 4 mil compared to 4.2~4.5 mil I get with other SA, Poison, Hybrid builds. The lack of haste is the big kicker, as 12 seconds of a 33% attack buff, does not compare to 60 seconds of haste 22% attack speed + 17% attack buff. Losing that attack speed hurts overall sp regen, cunning proc rate, movement speed, and a 17% attack buff over 60 seconds is much better then a 12 second 33% attack buff per 60 seconds.


    Now granted, we can't properly test the bonus dps that Empowered Mindbreaker adds onto the build, but that holds true for the other builds as well (albeit less because they hover at 5 points instead of 10. Since mindbreaker at max is 500% of the base 40% vs 250% of the base 40%, I don't think the difference would solve a disparity of several 200k-500k damage.


    Unless I'm missing something, I wouldn't consider this build so superior that I would go ahead and pronounce it as "the -real- thief build"