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>> http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/45796/

Thief hate needs to end. Somehow.

VendalVendal
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in Suggestions and Feedback
Whether it be via buff, or some other means I'm tired of it.
I outperform many a player in total damage and survivability because of how I play as my thief, yet still I find myself kicked from parties repeatedly with nothing to base it upon except me being a thief.

It's hard enough to get into a hard dungeon with a priest via the que. It's even more so frustrating when you go in and get a priest and a good group and they abandon the moment you start the fight cause they see me use poison edge. because they somehow know that it's not the best dps. Which is quite frankly wrong btw not that it matters.

And I whisper them and straight up get told it's because you were a thief. There is a weird classism in this game ive seldom experienced in any MMO and it's utterly ridiculous. It wastes my time and makes the game very miserable to play when because I like the thief class best I have to wait in queues three times as long as the average player to find a group willing to tolerate me.
I'm not lobbying for a buff necessarily. tho I do think some changes should be made I enjoy the cunning mechanic. BUT something needs to be done. this really is ridiculous

As far as the poll is concerned Im asking for honesty, but to be frank i think most of the respondents will not be the ones guilty of this classism
SyrusMarufujiOneConfusedMilletian
  1. What do you think is the state of the thief? Have you left a party because of ones presence?40 votes
    1. Thief is fine as it is, and I haven't ever left or kicked on account of one.
       23% (9 votes)
    2. Thief is too hard to play not weak, but I haven't ever left or kicked on account of one.
       10% (4 votes)
    3. Thief is weak, but I haven't ever left or kicked on account of one.
       38% (15 votes)
    4. Thief is fine as it is, But I have kicked or left parties because of them.
       5% (2 votes)
    5. Thief is too hard to play not weak, But I have kicked or left parties because of them.
       3% (1 vote)
    6. Thief is weak, And I have kicked or left parties because of them.
       23% (9 votes)

Comments

  • SyrusMarufujiSyrusMarufuji
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,395
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    i HONESTLY dont see a problem with thief and the hate it gets is unfounded. People are babied too much by priests and want to facetank everything and when they cant do that on a thief and have to actually use their brain they fizzle out. Their poor performance on thief leads them to believe that other thieves must also be as lazy as they are and conclude that they are "bad". And then the people who havent tried thief see the talk other people have to say about it and mindlessly spew the same garbage.

    I actually main priest and have never kicked or left because of a thief and I've never failed a dungeon run because of a thief not doing enough dps compared to rest of the party.

    And the end of the day thief playstyle aint for everyone and instead of accepting that people do the numbercrunch game. I mean if you wanna do that just run 4 assassins all the time because screw people having fun with variety right?
  • VendalVendal
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    Posts: 59
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    i HONESTLY dont see a problem with thief and the hate it gets is unfounded. People are babied too much by priests and want to facetank everything and when they cant do that on a thief and have to actually use their brain they fizzle out. Their poor performance on thief leads them to believe that other thieves must also be as lazy as they are and conclude that they are "bad". And then the people who havent tried thief see the talk other people have to say about it and mindlessly spew the same garbage.

    I actually main priest and have never kicked or left because of a thief and I've never failed a dungeon run because of a thief not doing enough dps compared to rest of the party.

    And the end of the day thief playstyle aint for everyone and instead of accepting that people do the numbercrunch game. I mean if you wanna do that just run 4 assassins all the time because screw people having fun with variety right?

    It is somewhat founded. Have you leveled a thief to max and started gearing? I'm not saying you have to do that to have a say but... my weapons are at +9 now. and I've tried many many many different builds. I've been through balrog once without a priest, and most times without a tank. It takes skill to survive as a thief and I love it :D theres also a lot of hidden things in the class like how BLade dance and Somersault kick do 2x the listed damage (because they are doublehand skills) but the point being at the end of the day....

    I still do less damage no matter how well I perform against the boss than a knight with +4 gear. that's sad. my job is dps and I can't pull out the stops. I can survive and play quite well, but I will still not see the same returns for my skill that a knight with the two invulnerable moves will see @_@ and thats sad.

    You are right tho the playstyle isnt for everyone, and like said it's not the playstyle I have issue with, it's the fact that we are hated cause were either A: legitamtely weaker
    or B: most thieves are unskilled.

    Most likely it's A.
    In fact despite the skill curve I can definately say it's A. still I'm not sure a buff is the answer with awakening somewhere on the horizon. but the thief hat culture is undeniable and has to have some real grounds.

    I was greatful to a party shortly after making this post that stayed with me for 5 bbalrog runs, despite the fact that when reporting dps each time the zerkers was pulling 17-19m the knight 13-15m and me 9-11m tho my gear was higher than the zerkers. and trust me it's not my build. I've done tons of tests on dummies and I'm quite certain there are three viable builds, one of which I think is more survivable than the others cause of its focus on blade dance (which gives us our 99% 1 second dodge proc)

    Some people are nice. and I'm wildly greatful.

    Additionally in the thief threads you'll find a video of a 4 man thief party that handles balrog. It's epic :D but its still is a very long and arduous venture.
  • OcculoOcculo
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    Thief does require a bit more skill to keep up with other class's. Yes it can fall behind, a similer geared zerk or sin that knows how to play can and will out dps a thief. I love thief, it is by far the most fun class to play. But it does have it's issues. Regardless though it can still pull high dpm. Another issue is thief brings zero utility to a group or raid. Assassin's don't really either unless they have the one passive, but they do bring more dmg. If a party had to choose between a thief, sin, archer, or wizard or something. Im sure they would take either of the three over a thief, since they all atleast bring more dmg or utility through party buffs. Now if thief could actually pull the highest dps with the effort put in or had some group utility that would make it better honestly. Even with awakening thief is still only about mid tier. Zerk and runeblade are top two spots after awakenings. Anyways, thief is still fun, no matter how bad or good it ever gets or anything that happens i will still main it. It's just too much of a fun class to play. And i have never been kicked from a party either, and i think it does have to deal with knowing how to actually play the class, if you play bad or run a bad build no one is going to want to run with you. Though if you know how to play well people will gladly keep you around.
    Vendal
  • VendalVendal
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    Occulo wrote: »
    Thief does require a bit more skill to keep up with other class's. Yes it can fall behind, a similer geared zerk or sin that knows how to play can and will out dps a thief. I love thief, it is by far the most fun class to play. But it does have it's issues. Regardless though it can still pull high dpm. Another issue is thief brings zero utility to a group or raid. Assassin's don't really either unless they have the one passive, but they do bring more dmg. If a party had to choose between a thief, sin, archer, or wizard or something. Im sure they would take either of the three over a thief, since they all atleast bring more dmg or utility through party buffs. Now if thief could actually pull the highest dps with the effort put in or had some group utility that would make it better honestly. Even with awakening thief is still only about mid tier. Zerk and runeblade are top two spots after awakenings. Anyways, thief is still fun, no matter how bad or good it ever gets or anything that happens i will still main it. It's just too much of a fun class to play. And i have never been kicked from a party either, and i think it does have to deal with knowing how to actually play the class, if you play bad or run a bad build no one is going to want to run with you. Though if you know how to play well people will gladly keep you around.

    I've never been kicked once a dungeon started. Just once we get into the lobby. But I thinks thats obviously cause once started they see I can dodge appropriately and I actually dont die they keep me on haha.
    Im really really surprised you've never been kicked, because as I said I most certainly have, 4 times a row in fact in parties with priests where I verified 2/4 times was because I was a thief. the first two I didn't whisper cause I wasnt frustrated yet.

    But I do absolutely agree with the bulk of your post. Thief is so much fun to play :D
  • NeihelNeihel
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    Thief should be top DPS to compensate for the lack of party buffs
    VendalOneConfusedMilletianPaperCreaseKyuukei
  • Nanachi_CCCPNanachi_CCCP
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,900
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    I play thief and i leave party when i see one on my main
    He is super easy to play yet people still manage to die 8 times in row with him.
    And thief is mostly not main of people so they wear trash items just to hit that 2100gs,often items that are not for thief...

    To leave in hard dungeon when you see thief results in 30% faster run in average.

    To leave when someone has less than +10 weapon results also in about 30% faster run

    Thief with +0 weapon,that is like afker,i will not carry such person if he does not pay me 2mil meso first..
  • VendalVendal
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    I play thief and i leave party when i see one on my main
    He is super easy to play yet people still manage to die 8 times in row with him.
    And thief is mostly not main of people so they wear trash items just to hit that 2100gs,often items that are not for thief...

    To leave in hard dungeon when you see thief results in 30% faster run in average.

    To leave when someone has less than +10 weapon results also in about 30% faster run

    Thief with +0 weapon,that is like afker,i will not carry such person if he does not pay me 2mil meso first..

    You may be the definition of a jerk. anyone having to pay 2mil a run is quite ridiculous, and in fact the paid to afk content market as a whole is another thing I absolutly abhor.
    So that 30% longer tho? is that really worth requeing which ends up consuming perhaps another 30% in wait time? not to mention the fact that you've now screwed another player?

    Im glad your honest about your dealings tho. for that I am grateful. But another thing to consider. people sub +10 are kinda the reason a dungeon que exists. so they can get parties when they lack the community or skill to do content yet, and to learn. if you dont want to deal with such things use the party finder, NOT the queue. To drop people that are sub your gear lvl, but are still appropriately leveled for the content that they queued for has a very bad impact on the community in any game.
    SherriCariseiSyrusMarufujiOneConfusedMilletianSentineIsPaperCreaseHarrmsKyuukeiCryoGXchocopug
  • SherriSherri
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 8,580
    Posts: 690
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    I've never played Thief before but I don't see any reason to kick them out of a party.
    It's pathetic that people obsess over how quickly they can complete a dungeon and freak when there is 'a slightly weaker class' in the party.
    Uhm as long as I get the dungeon done it's fine, and as long as they are participating then they're just fine in my book
    SyrusMarufujiOneConfusedMilletianPuppyPowr
  • Nanachi_CCCPNanachi_CCCP
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,900
    Posts: 280
    Member
    Vendal wrote: »
    I play thief and i leave party when i see one on my main
    He is super easy to play yet people still manage to die 8 times in row with him.
    And thief is mostly not main of people so they wear trash items just to hit that 2100gs,often items that are not for thief...

    To leave in hard dungeon when you see thief results in 30% faster run in average.

    To leave when someone has less than +10 weapon results also in about 30% faster run

    Thief with +0 weapon,that is like afker,i will not carry such person if he does not pay me 2mil meso first..

    You may be the definition of a jerk. anyone having to pay 2mil a run is quite ridiculous, and in fact the paid to afk content market as a whole is another thing I absolutly abhor.
    So that 30% longer tho? is that really worth requeing which ends up consuming perhaps another 30% in wait time? not to mention the fact that you've now screwed another player?

    Im glad your honest about your dealings tho. for that I am grateful. But another thing to consider. people sub +10 are kinda the reason a dungeon que exists. so they can get parties when they lack the community or skill to do content yet, and to learn. if you dont want to deal with such things use the party finder, NOT the queue. To drop people that are sub your gear lvl, but are still appropriately leveled for the content that they queued for has a very bad impact on the community in any game.

    Look,i m not kicking anyone i just leave.So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    You really want to force me to play with people that just want me to carry and baby sit them?
    I do not know where did you read that you have to carry:"bots,people that exploit to get higher gs, or just any level 50 player ingame" please post link to it.
    To find new party does take me exactly 1 second i will not fight boss 4x longer just because you want me to carry exploiter and his bot friends ,haha...
    Maybe stop wearing Acreon's Cannon(heavy gunner weapon) on your thief just because it is cheap gear score and I will leave less?
    It is shame that they even allow you to equip items from other class and then go to dungeon with it...

    It does take no time to reque,people would not leave so much if it took hour to find someone else,it is 0 to 1 seconds at any hour. If you get priest and he does leave,just click ; and "find party" you instantly get new priest/someone else duhh,it is no big deal.

    There are 30 runs per week,bad group will take 15+ minutes or more to kill one FD good group will do it in 7minutes or less
    30 x 7 = 210 minutes
    30 x 15 = 450minutes

    You can cry and shout all you want,i'm gonna spend that time saved leveling alts or doing dungeons on them. :^)
    You also need to think about true end-game,i can tell you more about that in private chat.Contact me on my email BillGatesSon@armyspy.com.

    If It was up to me you could pick "4.5k gs or above" in party finder and this issue would not exist.
    Because it is not up to me,this is next best thing.
  • AynixAynix
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,085
    Posts: 297
    Member
    Sorry, but it wont end just as other crap that came to us from KMS2/CMS2. People just blindly follow everything they were told by someone who played other version of the game.
    (I could name at least few things like that)
  • OneConfusedMilletianOneConfusedMilletian
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,590
    Posts: 115
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    Neihel wrote: »
    Thief should be top DPS to compensate for the lack of party buffs

    One idea I've heard floating around was adding stronger debuff effects to Thief's skills. Thieves already have at least one move that drains enemy SP and one that buffs party movement speed. Further effects like stun or stacking debuffs to enemy defense/damage could help Thief stand out and be valued more.

    I think the nice thing with this is that Thieves could dominate in PvP at the hands of any player willing to go through the learning curve. With both damage and debuffs over time, even an Assassin would have to bring their A-game to compete with a Thief.
  • SentineIsSentineIs
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,605
    Posts: 157
    Member
    Neihel wrote: »
    Thief should be top DPS to compensate for the lack of party buffs

    One idea I've heard floating around was adding stronger debuff effects to Thief's skills. Thieves already have at least one move that drains enemy SP and one that buffs party movement speed. Further effects like stun or stacking debuffs to enemy defense/damage could help Thief stand out and be valued more.

    I think the nice thing with this is that Thieves could dominate in PvP at the hands of any player willing to go through the learning curve. With both damage and debuffs over time, even an Assassin would have to bring their A-game to compete with a Thief.

    Pretty sure haste is not a party buff. But I agree that making thief more debuff heavy would add a niche that would be interesting.
  • NikynoonooNikynoonoo
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    I honestly don't care about thieves, but I sure care about if we have a priest in the party or not. You would think the group finder would try to put you with a priest or a heavy gunner at least since they have med kits, but nope we just have the issue of people going in and out looking for a priest. I would rather wait to get a priest then be thrown into a group without one just for people to leave.
  • WallSeriesWallSeries
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    a knight is supposed to be tanky in his tank build and do less dmg even in his dps build (they ain't as tanky as they're supposed to and their dps is apparently quite high)
    a zerk is supposed to be weaker at early fight and deal huge dmg on hit at time goes on (Dark Aura+Ground Breaker, Dark Might, Bloodlust/Price, Inhuman Endurance)
    range/mage classes should deal high dmg, low hp and low mobility (Archer/Gunner does less damage compare to Mage on hit but their attack speeds seem to be alot faster than Mage)
    a thief is supposed to be one of the highest dps classes in game, with med mobility and low survial (a thief is supposed to be kicked out of party... jk)
    2 posion DOTs and surprice attack to end a 12s combo dps which is super popular build, even if surprise attack doesn't land, the 2 DOTs would still ticking, its not hard to reapply the DOTs
    Vicious Cuts also allow them to deal tons of dmg in shorter range time but it comsumes all 100 spirits so fast even without using Haste, so fast that u spend more time using double slash than using vicious cuts... in dungeons, using HASTE will sometimes lower ur vicious cuts dmg by 10 to 20% because of fair fight
    Haste is such a nice skill, knowing u will be always short on spirit, giving u attack speed buff so u can double slash for the rest of the fight
    if Haste also give Spirit Thief a buff on SP recover on hit (5 instead of 4) then it would be great
    activate Cunning while using Double Slash should also restore some SP
  • NikynoonooNikynoonoo
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    a knight is supposed to be tanky in his tank build and do less dmg even in his dps build (they ain't as tanky as they're supposed to and their dps is apparently quite high)

    Yeah that sounds about right I often forget I'm supposed to be more defencive and not just a shield thrower (because that helps defence right?). I got to say this game does not encourage being defencive because that's stupid that means you eat the attack when the game clearly wants you to avoid them so we gave up mobility to maybe survive attacks and our bulwark doesn't work on everything so it's a guessing game until you figure out what it works on and what it doesn't (newsflash the things it works on you could probably survive using iron shield anyway). I would say we are in a weird place at the moment because we're a defence class in a DPS oriented game.

    World PvP though we're broken we can just spin to win I don't know why they gave that title to berserkers because it belongs to us.
  • VendalVendal
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,090
    Posts: 59
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    Vendal wrote: »
    I play thief and i leave party when i see one on my main
    He is super easy to play yet people still manage to die 8 times in row with him.
    And thief is mostly not main of people so they wear trash items just to hit that 2100gs,often items that are not for thief...

    To leave in hard dungeon when you see thief results in 30% faster run in average.

    To leave when someone has less than +10 weapon results also in about 30% faster run

    Thief with +0 weapon,that is like afker,i will not carry such person if he does not pay me 2mil meso first..

    You may be the definition of a jerk. anyone having to pay 2mil a run is quite ridiculous, and in fact the paid to afk content market as a whole is another thing I absolutly abhor.
    So that 30% longer tho? is that really worth requeing which ends up consuming perhaps another 30% in wait time? not to mention the fact that you've now screwed another player?

    Im glad your honest about your dealings tho. for that I am grateful. But another thing to consider. people sub +10 are kinda the reason a dungeon que exists. so they can get parties when they lack the community or skill to do content yet, and to learn. if you dont want to deal with such things use the party finder, NOT the queue. To drop people that are sub your gear lvl, but are still appropriately leveled for the content that they queued for has a very bad impact on the community in any game.

    Look,i m not kicking anyone i just leave.So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    You really want to force me to play with people that just want me to carry and baby sit them?
    I do not know where did you read that you have to carry:"bots,people that exploit to get higher gs, or just any level 50 player ingame" please post link to it.
    To find new party does take me exactly 1 second i will not fight boss 4x longer just because you want me to carry exploiter and his bot friends ,haha...
    Maybe stop wearing Acreon's Cannon(heavy gunner weapon) on your thief just because it is cheap gear score and I will leave less?
    It is shame that they even allow you to equip items from other class and then go to dungeon with it...

    It does take no time to reque,people would not leave so much if it took hour to find someone else,it is 0 to 1 seconds at any hour. If you get priest and he does leave,just click ; and "find party" you instantly get new priest/someone else duhh,it is no big deal.

    There are 30 runs per week,bad group will take 15+ minutes or more to kill one FD good group will do it in 7minutes or less
    30 x 7 = 210 minutes
    30 x 15 = 450minutes

    You can cry and shout all you want,i'm gonna spend that time saved leveling alts or doing dungeons on them. :^)
    You also need to think about true end-game,i can tell you more about that in private chat.Contact me on my email BillGatesSon@armyspy.com.

    If It was up to me you could pick "4.5k gs or above" in party finder and this issue would not exist.
    Because it is not up to me,this is next best thing.

    Leaving is definitely different from kicking, but it still gets frustrating for thief players when their effective que time is doubled or more than because of people leaving.
    That being said I do completely understand you not wanting to babysit, But I still say if thats the case use party finder not the que. And as you said yeah if you could specify GS as a req in the party finder it would make sense and be much more efficient.

  • VendalVendal
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,090
    Posts: 59
    Member
    WallSeries wrote: »
    a knight is supposed to be tanky in his tank build and do less dmg even in his dps build (they ain't as tanky as they're supposed to and their dps is apparently quite high)
    a zerk is supposed to be weaker at early fight and deal huge dmg on hit at time goes on (Dark Aura+Ground Breaker, Dark Might, Bloodlust/Price, Inhuman Endurance)
    range/mage classes should deal high dmg, low hp and low mobility (Archer/Gunner does less damage compare to Mage on hit but their attack speeds seem to be alot faster than Mage)
    a thief is supposed to be one of the highest dps classes in game, with med mobility and low survial (a thief is supposed to be kicked out of party... jk)
    2 posion DOTs and surprice attack to end a 12s combo dps which is super popular build, even if surprise attack doesn't land, the 2 DOTs would still ticking, its not hard to reapply the DOTs
    Vicious Cuts also allow them to deal tons of dmg in shorter range time but it comsumes all 100 spirits so fast even without using Haste, so fast that u spend more time using double slash than using vicious cuts... in dungeons, using HASTE will sometimes lower ur vicious cuts dmg by 10 to 20% because of fair fight
    Haste is such a nice skill, knowing u will be always short on spirit, giving u attack speed buff so u can double slash for the rest of the fight
    if Haste also give Spirit Thief a buff on SP recover on hit (5 instead of 4) then it would be great
    activate Cunning while using Double Slash should also restore some SP

    I really like the idea of the haste buff to spirit gain on hit.
    <_<..... >_> can't decide which parts are sarcasm and which arent tho above haha.
  • Thief_DewayneThief_Dewayne
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 415
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    I don't get kicked from too many parties but I do on occasion and it's annoying.
    but to be completely honest I LOVE the thief hate it gives thieves a personal motivation to prove people wrong, it has happen so many times to me in parties that I join (that i don't get kicked from) "oh boy it's a thief." in the end of the dungeon end up dealing the most damage and get "oh a good thief you don't see that everyday","wow that's surprising","how?" it's just extra satisfying for thief players to do well and thrive for the best cause everyone is against us. In my opinion thieves will always be hated even with the buff because as most thieves been saying "wait till pvp" if they hate us now, THEY ARE REALLY gonna hate us on the PvP scene. I think the hate is a part of the class, deal with it and become so powerful/good that they just have to respect you as a thief.
    OneConfusedMilletian
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,680
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    I don't really get kicked, maybe because they look at my GS and weapons and decide to give me a chance. Plus I run with my guild most of the time.
  • HeimerdingerHeimerdinger
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,870
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    would you let a thief into your house? no
    Koreangurl