Let's enjoy the final days! Check out what changes and events started this March here: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/56485/sunset-in-maple-world
MapleStory 2's servers will be officially closing on May 27th: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/56486/service-discontinuation

The truth has dawned onto me....

Comments

  • ReziRezi
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    edited 2:07PM October 19, 2018
    Now I don't know what the ratio is of paying players, but it would be interesting to see which players are under that category.

    As I said above, I paid $5 for this game. That's because there was something that low of a price. Now, to be fair, the package was at a 75% discount and the items in the package were maybe worth $2 by the largest stretch of the imagination, but I was actually just giving money in return for a great game.

    In fact, I'm a huge supporter of paying a (very) small amount for entry into any MMO, past a short playable demo and explanation of further gameplay. It gets rid of bots (for the most part), and supports the game without asking too much from any one person.

    The reason why most F2Pers (or, like me, P2Sers - pay to supporters) see P2Wers as entitled is that they literally have hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars (or equivalent) to drop each and every time an MMO comes out with a gacha, which tells everyone that those people have way more money than they know how to intelligently spend. Under no circumstances should an outfit in a game, especially a gacha for said outfit, be more than $5. Ever. EVER. Yet, some games ask for more than $100 just for a single gacha box with an extremely low chance of getting the package's namesake.

    But because there are rich (or perceived rich) players - aka cash whales - that spend those hundreds, thousands of dollars for such things, MMO companies have become reliant on them and focus exclusively on them, while F2P players get ignored, which makes those P2W players "entitled" at least in that respective game, even if they're not in real life (and some are, but it's not nice to generalize).

    In other words, Nexon and other MMO companies aren't the problem. The problem is that there are people who will keep up bad spending habits that those companies continuously rely on to survive because they no longer believe in fair pricing due to said habits.
  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
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    edited 2:11PM October 19, 2018
    Rezi wrote: »
    Years and years ago, back in the archaic days of Vindictus Beta, I was already a Mabinogi player. On some incredibly old account that I don't even remember, I paid money for Mabinogi once and then Vindictus once. I paid that money because I knew that it would go to the developers; that is, the real developers, not the hacks that eventually replaced them and implemented stupid updates like RISE.

    Back then, the games weren't P2W. Sure, you needed to pay for character cards and non-periodic rebirths in Mabinogi, but at that time they weren't really necessary. Vindictus was also primarily costumes and pets, with no stupid equipment upgrade items flooding the cash shop. Back then, everything was golden.
    Are you joking? Or are you just unaware of Mabinogi's monetization history? Ok, first of all, Mabinogi released with 3 different premium services. I don't remember the names, but one would get you more inventory space and allow you access to set up a shop. One would give you premium items daily. The last would give you Nao support, allowing you to call on Nao to revive freely 3 times a day. I know there were other things like 3 daily bomb usage as well, but don't remember which package they belonged to. Each one of these cost about $5 each, or you could just get all 3 for $15. This also gave you access to the story of the game, and transformations. Yep, you had to pay in order to even do the story or use transformations.

    This didn't include rebirths. During this time, they didn't give you any for free, meaning unless you paid $10 (for basic, $15 for premium), you were stuck never being able to rebirth. Also, if I remember correctly you could only rebirth after a month or something like that, or maybe it was age based. It's been a long time. XD

    Point is Mabinogi was the most pay to win game I had ever played. The game was practically pay to play. And to say rebirths were not necessary doesn't' even make sense, yes they have always been necessary since day one. Ranking up skills hinges on you being able to rebirth. Without them, you would eventually hit a point where grinding for levels becomes entirely unproductive.

    Now later on down the road, they changed things up. Eventually, you could play the story and transform for free. They also began giving free rebirths once you reached age 16 I think it was, and then eventually they started giving free rebirths weekly. It progressively became less pay to win over time. But it still is technically pay to win even today, just in a different way. Now you can buy gacha and get powerful items. You can buy pets with AoE abilities and spam them to take out an entire floor of enemies. You can also buy upgrade stones for your weapons.

    There was no golden age XD. To me, it just sounds like you didn't pay attention, or the pay to win didn't bother you back then as much as you thought it did.

    HosuReziUll
  • ReziRezi
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    edited 2:17PM October 19, 2018
    Ok, first of all, Mabinogi released with 3 different premium services.

    I said back in the time of Vindictus Beta. At that time, the changes you spoke of halfway down your post had already been made. As for pay to play, VIP was and is Mabi's pay to play service. It's not like VIP was "like pay to play" - that's literally what it is, pay to play the game the way it is meant to be played instead of the trial version. Playing Mabi without VIP is like playing RuneScape without membership; sure, it's fine for some people, like me, but the company says it's "not the full experience" for a reason.
  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
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    Rezi wrote: »
    Ok, first of all, Mabinogi released with 3 different premium services.

    I said back in the time of Vindictus Beta. At that time, the changes you spoke of halfway down your post had already been made. As for pay to play, VIP was and is Mabi's pay to play service. It's not like VIP was "like pay to play" - that's literally what it is, pay to play the game the way it is meant to be played instead of the trial version. Playing Mabi without VIP is like playing RuneScape without membership; sure, it's fine for some people, like me, but the company says it's "not the full experience" for a reason.

    Ya, but my point was the game had always been pay to win. Even when you played it. There was never a time Mabinogi wasn't pay to win. At least not that I am aware of, and I been playing the game since G1
    Ull
  • GricelyGricely
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    The original poster seems to be confusing the price per coin granted by purchasing style crates with the amount of coins given as compensation for the change in how style crates work.

    It's not a refund of money spent; it's a goodwill gesture due to the fact that sets are less rare now you can guarantee buying everything for coins.
    mirta000DragonicWolf
  • ReziRezi
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    edited 2:37PM October 19, 2018
    Ya, but my point was the game had always been pay to win. Even when you played it. There was never a time Mabinogi wasn't pay to win. At least not that I am aware of, and I been playing the game since G1

    Pay 2 Win means either that you cannot get through the game's primary content (endgame, skill mastery, etc) in a PvE-centric game and/or cannot beat other players in a PvP-centric game, without paying real money. The time that I spoke of certainly was not P2W. Yes, there were many frustrations if you were a free player, but no content was locked either behind map locks, chapter locks, or stat locks. Mabinogi has now returned to locking content behind real money - such as ace/hero skills and absurd stat requirements (since difficulty is based on levels instead of combat power, and free players have stats under what's necessary to deal with content of their level) which require selling cash items in the player market to boost one's game progress. But during the Vindi Beta era, this was not necessary; you could instead pay with time grinding and reasonably get to endgame with your personal skillset unlocked, even with just free rebirths.
  • MarchinBunnyMarchinBunny
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    Rezi wrote: »
    Ya, but my point was the game had always been pay to win. Even when you played it. There was never a time Mabinogi wasn't pay to win. At least not that I am aware of, and I been playing the game since G1

    Pay 2 Win means either that you cannot get through the game's primary content (endgame, skill mastery, etc) in a PvE-centric game and/or cannot beat other players in a PvP-centric game, without paying real money. The time that I spoke of certainly was not P2W. Yes, there were many frustrations if you were a free player, but no content was locked either behind map locks, chapter locks, or stat locks. Mabinogi has now returned to locking content behind real money - such as ace/hero skills and absurd stat requirements which require selling cash items in the player market to boost one's game progress. But during the Vindi Beta era, this was not necessary; you could instead pay with time grinding and reasonably get to endgame with your personal skillset unlocked, even with just free rebirths.

    Ehh, well I suppose it's possible there was a short period of time that maybe the game wasn't pay to win, but I am not really certain as to why you would count that lol. It was pay to win the majority of its lifespan, meaning even during the time you claim it wasn't, it's not like as a free player you could catch up to paying players of the past.

    Well anyway, I suppose it doesn't matter. Kinda off topic anyway XD
  • ReziRezi
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    Well anyway, I suppose it doesn't matter. Kinda off topic anyway XD

    On the contrary, our discussion helped inform others of the framework of what's considered P2W, pay to play, and so on by different people. And hopefully Nexon will read the posts and recognize what players will and won't recognize as fair, or at least baseline acceptable, money-making methods.
  • AzuchiAzuchi
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    Been busy all day and i come back to see many views and points, Going to be abit hard to Reply to all of them so i'll try to address them in one post and i'll try to be as less confusing and hard to follow as I can.

    My complaints began with the whole "Restriction system" In this game.
    They made it so that the game basicly intervenes with you progressing at your own pace. This is a issue that concerns both pay2win and free2play players.
    I believe there is no reason to play more then one class on a game unless you actually "WANT" to do that, but currently it's almost mandatory to play more then 1 character because that is the only way to progress.

    Now what I've noticed is that my suggestion for giving Cashers unlimited dungeon runs in Premium club [since premium club benefits are very lack luster]
    Now the main argument agains't this is "That'll make the game Pay2Win!"
    To which i argue back how would that make it pay2win? It would still take time for us to grind our gear, we just happen to have unlimited runs.
    Which is the same as let's say a person with a lot of time on their hands making several accounts with several alts.
    There is literally no difference, Except 1 The person with multiple alts would get rich faster because they get to do multiple "Get Rich" daily quests.
    Meanwhile "Pay2Win" player would still have to grind for hours until he gets lucky and gets a drop. We just removed the hassle of having to create multiple alts.

    Not to mention that so called P2W service you all oh so much seem to be agains't would be avialable to EVERYONE, it's just a matter of going Oh i wanna buy that<- It's so simple it's optional it wouldn't break the game. It's just a option that allows people to do the same thing as the Alt2Win as i call them now.


    Are we on the same page? Yes good.

    Next up let me address my issue with style crates and the compensation:

    For the compensation that's Easy, i think the compensation is bad really bad. They should increase the amount of coins or change the Criteria for the Exchange X amount for 1 coin. Cuz the amount of coins you'd receive would literally be abysmal compared to what a person had to spend on boxes.

    As for the costumes, I've repeatedly said this but I'm perfectly okay with the costumes losing their stats.
    And for the last and final time i just believe if you're gonna tinker with a item which in it's original form "HAD" Stats which was how it was originally designed.
    You cannot sell it at the same price it used to be, Even if it's in a gamble crate you cannot sell the crates for the same ammount of money they were worth since the item inside has literally been nerfed.
    The prices should be lowered in order to balance out the Reward, And im saying this because if it becomes a trend nexon will basicly be robbing everyone. Since they are selling Half of the content at full price.

    It's a cheat, it's not about giving the items stats back. It's about the fact that they still wanna sell it at full price.
    Also in case nobody has noticed they have purposely excluded parts of the costumes from the Premium Market and basically put them into style shop at horrendously large amount of coins.
    Basicly they said they would addd them to the shop at a higher price, But they only added half the stash into the shop.
    The seraphim set is in the premium shop but guess what';s missing The weapon <- And in the Style shop the weapon is worth 16 Coins. If you're unlucky that's gonna cost you 48$ just for that weapon skin when they clearly stated they would add the items for purchase into the shop.

    Now back on the topic of dungeon limitations.
    So far everyone is yelling removing the limits on premium users makes it pay2win.
    I asked how exactly does that make it pay2win?
    I've had somethings pointed out on me that i find a bit Redundant.

    A great example would be of how someone said: If they made premium members have unlimited runs, Someone with an alt would buy that service and abuse it on all his alts.
    But he can do unlimited runs on one character....why would they use alts?
    My question was shrugged off with no reply, I mean how would they abuse of it using alts. If he can do unlimited runs and lets say He played 3 hours on a Zerker, and then moved to his Wizard and farmed for another 3 hours. That's the same thing as farming for 6 Straight hours on one character. There is literally no advantage or disadvantage?
    That's not a valid argument, they can't farm on multiple alts at the same time as i stated before it's impossible. dungeons are Made in such a way where you need a team, I'd be amazed if you could solo a run with 3 afk accounts that you own, which would be the only way to Abuse of unlimited runs,

    It's not pay2win because there is no Winning in having unlimited runs to premium users, All it does is give them more time to grind on their very limited time off they have from work with no restrictions.
    You still have to take time to farm, you still have to deal with the drop rates.
    There is literally no Winning advantage here especially when free2play players can literally do the same thing by Making alts, This is just a 3rd option for those who just wanna have fun and progress on one character.

    Maybe im being unclear which is why people are taking everything i say the wrong way so i'm hoping this is simplified and straight to the point about my complaints.
  • mirta000mirta000
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    Azuchi wrote: »
    Now what I've noticed is that my suggestion for giving Cashers unlimited dungeon runs in Premium club [since premium club benefits are very lack luster]
    Now the main argument agains't this is "That'll make the game Pay2Win!"
    To which i argue back how would that make it pay2win? It would still take time for us to grind our gear, we just happen to have unlimited runs.
    Which is the same as let's say a person with a lot of time on their hands making several accounts with several alts.
    There is literally no difference, Except 1 The person with multiple alts would get rich faster because they get to do multiple "Get Rich" daily quests.
    Meanwhile "Pay2Win" player would still have to grind for hours until he gets lucky and gets a drop. We just removed the hassle of having to create multiple alts.

    Not to mention that so called P2W service you all oh so much seem to be agains't would be avialable to EVERYONE, it's just a matter of going Oh i wanna buy that<- It's so simple it's optional it wouldn't break the game. It's just a option that allows people to do the same thing as the Alt2Win as i call them now.

    You can not have unlimited alts. You have a clearly defined limit of 6 alts. 9 if you're willing to pay for the slots. Unlimited runs, are, well, unlimited. Dungeons actually give a lot of gold and you can profit quite a bit from onyx farming them by dismantling the material. The game would literally be "no-llife to win", as the person with the most time would achieve the most.

    As someone else said, you can't even take your alts to hard dungeons without spending the same time and money you had to spend on your main to gear them up too. So currently, if you have the time and the want to level multiple alts, you can maybe push yourself through the normal dungeon barrier, which is very much step 1. Unlimited dungeon runs wouldn't just cover you on normal dungeons, it would make hard dungeons and raiding for gear so so so much easier. Making it very much an advantage over F2P players. Making me rather against it.

    Azuchi wrote: »
    You cannot sell it at the same price it used to be, Even if it's in a gamble crate you cannot sell the crates for the same ammount of money they were worth since the item inside has literally been nerfed.
    The prices should be lowered in order to balance out the Reward, And im saying this because if it becomes a trend nexon will basicly be robbing everyone. Since they are selling Half of the content at full price.

    I don't see it as half the content, because I never wanted stats on my cosmetics. And I am okay to pay well for cosmetics if I'm allowed to buy them up front, which is why I love the lootbox changes so much. 1200$ for 90% chance at a common item was insane. 4-6$ per item? I'll take it! And adding the blue stuff to the style coin shop really made me go for the style coins too. There were a few items I was okay with paying 21$ for. I don't see it as being ripped off, I get to look awesome!
  • TalnovaTalnova
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    edited 6:09PM October 19, 2018
    Oh god, what a long, ranty and painful to read thread. In the future, please please please, think clearly about what you want to say, then say it succinctly, instead of forcing us through such a painful read to try and figure out your point. I can tell you are very passionate about this issue, and that is fair enough (good even), but you have to consider your audience if you want to make a point.

    Ok so let's go through this.

    Argument 1: We only get 1 coin per 5 style crates we bought. You did math and it sounded expensive, unfortunately it doesn't take into account one fact. Those coins are BONUS coins. We still got the items from the style crates. These are extra coins for free, as compensation because we purchased crates before they changed the system. What we got before the change was still worth the value, the main problem was with people who wanted the rng items and couldn't get them. We have extra coins which we can use to buy the rng items we couldn't get before. I was actually recommending to friends that they buy style crates before the patch because it is such a good deal. Bonus coins on top of my cosmetics? yes please.

    Argument 2: You work hard so therefore you deserve to be more powerful or skip the grind. Look this one is hard to argue, you will probably never agree with me, but I will try. By earning stuff in game you get a feeling off achievement, it makes you happy and helps you to enjoy the game. As humans we love to skip hard work and jump straight into the feeling of gratification. That is why companies make so much money with easy weight loss pills, or exercise machines that will make you fit in "just 3 minutes a day" even though they don't work. If pay to win is added, a lot of people will spend a lot to feel powerful/successful, but then quit the game because it is fake success, you haven't really earned anything at all. To make this game long term successful, people need to be given a sense of accomplishment that comes from actually earning their achievements, not a way to skip it.

    Argument 3: The people who don't want pay to win aren't spending money on the game, and therefore Nexon should ignore them. Firstly.... do you like dead games? Because without free to play players this game will be dead. Secondly, not everyone who hates pay to win spends nothing on the game. I have spent a lot and I hate pay to win because it makes it harder to play with my free to play friends, and because honestly it takes a lot of the fun out of the game when you can pay for instant gratification and feeling "powerful" instead of earning it. I would much more prefer to spend my money on cosmetics or convenience, then pay to to make the game easier and thus rob myself of enjoyment.

    Argument 4: They are ripping us off because they removed stats from cosmetics and made the cosmetics higher priced than other regions. IDK what to say about cosmetic stats, it really comes down to the same point as argument 2, so if you don't agree there (which I am sure you don't), then you won't agree here. As for the price being higher than other regions.... well I don't know. Honestly, I would like if they reduced the price of cosmetics a bit, but the game is still early on and it is possible they are still trying to figure out the correct pricing after removing pay 2 win items... I am neutral on this point, except the bit about being ripped off because no stats.

    At the end of the day it sounds like you want to be able to pay to be more powerful than other players. But it isn't really black and white, what about people with lots of time AND lots of money, I guess they will be more powerful than you in this case, will you force Nexon to put a restriction on their game time if they spend a certain amount or vice versa so you can feel "fairly treated".

    This is a game. We are here to play a game. Real life shouldn't come into it.
    Someone who works 40+ hours a week and can afford to pay to win; someone who works 40+ hours a week has a large family and can't afford pay to win; someone who doesn't work and can/can't afford pay to win...
    these people should all be treated the same, because real life shouldn't come into it. If you want to be successful in the game you should have to actually play the game. Can you imagine if games like fortnite let you pay to have auto-aim because you work a lot and don't have as much time as a NEET to get good at the game? ^o)
    DragonicWolfmirta000Rezi
  • AzuchiAzuchi
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    Talnova wrote: »
    Oh god, what a long, ranty and painful to read thread. In the future, please please please, think clearly about what you want to say, then say it succinctly, instead of forcing us through such a painful read to try and figure out your point. I can tell you are very passionate about this issue, and that is fair enough (good even), but you have to consider your audience if you want to make a point.

    Ok so let's go through this.

    Argument 1: We only get 1 coin per 5 style crates we bought. You did math and it sounded expensive, unfortunately it doesn't take into account one fact. Those coins are BONUS coins. We still got the items from the style crates. These are extra coins for free, as compensation because we purchased crates before they changed the system. What we got before the change was still worth the value, the main problem was with people who wanted the rng items and couldn't get them. We have extra coins which we can use to buy the rng items we couldn't get before. I was actually recommending to friends that they buy style crates before the patch because it is such a good deal. Bonus coins on top of my cosmetics? yes please.

    Argument 2: You work hard so therefore you deserve to be more powerful or skip the grind. Look this one is hard to argue, you will probably never agree with me, but I will try. By earning stuff in game you get a feeling off achievement, it makes you happy and helps you to enjoy the game. As humans we love to skip hard work and jump straight into the feeling of gratification. That is why companies make so much money with easy weight loss pills, or exercise machines that will make you fit in "just 3 minutes a day" even though they don't work. If pay to win is added, a lot of people will spend a lot to feel powerful/successful, but then quit the game because it is fake success, you haven't really earned anything at all. To make this game long term successful, people need to be given a sense of accomplishment that comes from actually earning their achievements, not a way to skip it.

    Argument 3: The people who don't want pay to win aren't spending money on the game, and therefore Nexon should ignore them. Firstly.... do you like dead games? Because without free to play players this game will be dead. Secondly, not everyone who hates pay to win spends nothing on the game. I have spent a lot and I hate pay to win because it makes it harder to play with my free to play friends, and because honestly it takes a lot of the fun out of the game when you can pay for instant gratification and feeling "powerful" instead of earning it. I would much more prefer to spend my money on cosmetics or convenience, then pay to to make the game easier and thus rob myself of enjoyment.

    Argument 4: They are ripping us off because they removed stats from cosmetics and made the cosmetics higher priced than other regions. IDK what to say about cosmetic stats, it really comes down to the same point as argument 2, so if you don't agree there (which I am sure you don't), then you won't agree here. As for the price being higher than other regions.... well I don't know. Honestly, I would like if they reduced the price of cosmetics a bit, but the game is still early on and it is possible they are still trying to figure out the correct pricing after removing pay 2 win items... I am neutral on this point, except the bit about being ripped off because no stats.

    At the end of the day it sounds like you want to be able to pay to be more powerful than other players. But it isn't really black and white, what about people with lots of time AND lots of money, I guess they will be more powerful than you in this case, will you force Nexon to put a restriction on their game time if they spend a certain amount or vice versa so you can feel "fairly treated".

    This is a game. We are here to play a game. Real life shouldn't come into it.
    Someone who works 40+ hours a week and can afford to pay to win; someone who works 40+ hours a week has a large family and can't afford pay to win; someone who doesn't work and can/can't afford pay to win...
    these people should all be treated the same, because real life shouldn't come into it. If you want to be successful in the game you should have to actually play the game. Can you imagine if games like fortnite let you pay to have auto-aim because you work a lot and don't have as much time as a NEET to get good at the game? ^o)

    I am unsure if you posted this after i kinda simplified my points on that last post, or before it feels like you did read it but at the same time you didn't.
    So i can't really reply to this when i sense that you're replying to my first post instead of my latest.
  • AzuchiAzuchi
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    From what I can tell the majority of people actually believe having unlimited access to dungeons would make this game "P2W" It's almost as if you guys believe being able to let's say in my case, Dump 3~4 hours into the dungeon once or twice a week is gonna instantly turn me into the most powerful player in the game.

    This is why i am strongly disagreeing with everyone, Having unlimited access to the dungeons won't make it P2W It gives us more incentive to farm, the drop rates are already low as heck so it would be pretty fine.
    Also again i fail to understand why you all are so blindly ignorant to the fact that : If we pay to get unlimited access to dungeons that doesn't mean we aren't putting effort into it to obtain our gear: WE STILL HAVE TO GRIND UNTIL WE GET THEM THAT WILL TAKE TIME AND EFFORT, You will still get that sense of satisfaction once you managed to dump several days/weeks into grinding the same dungeon until you got everything you wanted.

    And it drives me nuts that you blindly and so arrogantly tell me that I'm asking for a EASY way to reach the top, no im asking for a A ALTERNATIVE Way to get to the top that doesn't Require me creating 10 alts! I'd like to farm one my one character, Achieve what i want on my one character through my own effort which is why i'd be willing to PAY to have access to unlimited runs in dungeons.
    I'm not asking for a "Here is my money give me the best GEAR Chest"
    I'm asking for access to grinding my way to the top something NO PLAYER SHOULD EVER HAVE TO ASK A MMO FOR CUZ THAT'S A DEFAULT OPTION. I've played games for the most part of my life and since the introduction of stamina system and Set amount of dungeon runs per day have been introduced I've slowly begun to see how year by year more mmo rpg's are adopting this idea that players shouldn't have free-range to grind as much as they want or as little as they want per day.

    You tell me real life shouldn't come into the games or make a factor into it BUT IT ALREADY HAS BEFORE some idiot decided to starve himself and play a game for god knows how long, which is the whole reason Stamina system was even created in the first place as a LAW.

    All i want is to maximize the things I can do with the little time i have to play, And everyone seems to believe this is a horrible idea because the only counter argument i got is that it's P2Win, How is me grinding a dungeon repeatedly farming for my gear something that's been universally done for YEARS Pay2Win ?
    Literally youy guys think i'm hard to follow, you're the ones that im trying so hard to understand cuz apparently grinding and farming makes a game p2win now, Literally playing the game makes it p2win now.

    So far you're all suggesting i just don't play the game at the rate that this topic is going because Nexon is refusing to let me grind my dungeons at my leisure, while you all side with them believing that being able to "PLAY THE GAME" and enjoy it to the outmost limits with no restrictions in the little time i have would be Pay2Win.....This is so ridiculously stupid that i cannot believe that people are even arguing agains't it, Nexon makes some extra cash, I get to farm my dungeons let's say 30~60 runs per day for 2 days a week And or if i have some free time during that week i can push in some extra runs.

    It will still take time, it will still take effort...And it will still be god dam satisfying once i get my gear and im able to help my friends out instead of having to stress about how expensive stuff is in the market.
    If i can grind for my equipment i will but maplestory 2 Does not encourage it, it restricts it.
    And anyone that believes this is fine, they are a liar and are just on the hype train and defending the game blindly because if you trully believed that you wouldn't have any alts. Try playing 1 character and tell me how many years it'll take for you to farm your stuff unless you get EXTREMELY lucky and get that one drop you need to progress.

    This won't promote longevity eventually we will get fed up with it and just leave, we don't want to play a game that takes a year to grind for gear. A games longevity isn't determined by quick someone gets to end game gear, It's determined by how events, Patches and content is handled. This game is already amazing in every other aspect, the only place where it fails is the dungeon limitations.
    To me nothing is free to play when restrictions are put.
    And when restrictions are put there are normally ways to by-pass it In other words: Making an alt, or the alternative that HELPS the company CASH CONTENT.

    And allow me to repeat it again, just so i can drill it into everyone's heads because everyone keeps telling me i want a Easy win button,
    I DON'T I JUST WANNA FARM DUNGEONS AT MY LEISURE WITH NO LIMITATIONS SET.
    I enjoy dungeon it's what i like doing in most games, It promotes friendly Teamwork and nothing makes me happier then seeing people get the gear they want, We share our loot and help each other out . The one thing i enjoy the most is being restricted because of a stupid reason, and there are only two ways to fix this.
    Either a Cash method to by-pass Restrictions
    Or removing them entirely.

    And the only argument i have agains't me is that it'\s pay2win, how more Idiotic can this convo get im being told playing the game and grinding dungeons is pay2win. Yep i'm done here. Closing this topic. I've lost enough braincells today.
    For those of you who actually had a sound argument thank you for voicing your oppinion, for everyone else who believes farming dungeons with no restrictions is pay2win....I have no idea what to say to you cuz that's how speechless I am.
    I'll be dropping this topic permanently it's a waste of time and all i've been seeing is people who can somewhat understand where im coming from, and people who just say the most ridiculous crap i've ever seen.
    There is no logic and common sense here, there is only "It's pay2win so we don't want it"
    Good riddance have a nice life. I'm no longer replying to stupidity of this caliber.
    Ull
  • TalnovaTalnova
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,065
    Posts: 120
    Member
    edited 7:23PM October 19, 2018
    Azuchi wrote: »
    I am unsure if you posted this after i kinda simplified my points on that last post, or before it feels like you did read it but at the same time you didn't.
    So i can't really reply to this when i sense that you're replying to my first post instead of my latest.

    Ah.. sorry you are correct, I didn't see your later post which is a lot clearer.

    I think most my points still stand with regards to your initial post, however reading your later post and the one you just posted now I see you are more concerned about the dungeon limit in particular.

    My main problem with paying for extra dungeon limit is that it sucks for paid players when playing with free player friends. I disagree that people with more money always have less time, some people have more money and more time, or less money and less time. I don't think making us pay for an increased dungeon limit would make things more fair at all.

    The dungeon limit is an issue that needs to be looked into for everyone, not just paying players. They have said that is their intention though, so we will see what comes of it in the next update hopefully.


    Edit: also, I think that your last post responds angrily to my previous post. I was actually responding to your initial post which has comments about working more means you should be able to have an advantage and that you wanted to be able to buy cash shop cosmetics with stats etc. I was not only responding to your comments about wanting a reduce dungeon cap. I understand your feelings about the dungeon cap, but just disagree that the solution should only be for paid players. I was also not trying to personally attack you in any way.
  • ArmaBellumArmaBellum
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 510
    Posts: 5
    Member
    edited 7:56PM October 19, 2018
    Azuchi wrote: »
    It's almost as if you guys believe being able to let's say in my case, Dump 3~4 hours into the dungeon once or twice a week is gonna instantly turn me into the most powerful player in the game.

    So what about the people who will dump 12+ hours a day having a massive advantage over you after paying? You okay with that? If you're okay with that, why aren't you okay with these same people having a fairly smaller advantage over you now using their alts? What makes it any different?

    People are saying it will make the game "pay to win" not because of you specifically, but because of the people who will take full advantage of the uncapped dungeons and will have more time than you to run the dungeons for 12h a day until they're full months ahead of you in grind.
    It's not even that it's not going to make your particular situation any better, it's that it's going to make it much worse.

    I will say it again: the dungeon limit sucks and it's a terrible design decision, but letting players buy terrible design decisions away only makes a game much worse.
    GTRiNsane
  • mirta000mirta000
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 8,375
    Posts: 515
    Member
    Azuchi wrote: »
    From what I can tell the majority of people actually believe having unlimited access to dungeons would make this game "P2W" It's almost as if you guys believe being able to let's say in my case, Dump 3~4 hours into the dungeon once or twice a week is gonna instantly turn me into the most powerful player in the game.

    You personally would dumb 3,4 hours into the game. Someone else under your system could dump 18 hours a day and do non stop Onyx farm. Alts add a maximum possible cap to that.
    Azuchi wrote: »
    And it drives me nuts that you blindly and so arrogantly tell me that I'm asking for a EASY way to reach the top, no im asking for a A ALTERNATIVE Way to get to the top that doesn't Require me creating 10 alts!

    It is impossible to have 10 alts.
  • BluclueBluclue
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 5,190
    Posts: 434
    Member
    Honestly they only removed the obvious p2w. It really is about how you exploit the system thats currently available to you. For example, Dark descent basically has people using cash elixirs for their runs to reach top rankings. For chaos devorak you need piercing stats which would probably require you to re roll those random stats and the most efficient way to get the crystals needed to reroll is to do afk-fishing. Theres plenty of p2w you can exploit right now in exchange for merets. As long as people have merets to spend they will find a way :V
    UllArmaBellumRezi
  • DishonesteaDishonestea
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,035
    Posts: 105
    Member
    edited 3:02AM October 20, 2018
    I really don't know anyone with a job complaining about someone without one spending all their time on video games. For ms2 they just autoperform their way to 50 so they have 10 alts like everyone else.


    Also I disagree about beta vindictus being in golden age times since nexon's support was complete garbage until the end of 2012 + ppl were botting dungeons for scrolls like crazy with public hacks
    mirta000
  • UllUll
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,655
    Posts: 75
    Member
    edited 3:58AM October 20, 2018
    Bluclue wrote: »
    Honestly they only removed the obvious p2w. It really is about how you exploit the system thats currently available to you. For example, Dark descent basically has people using cash elixirs for their runs to reach top rankings. For chaos devorak you need piercing stats which would probably require you to re roll those random stats and the most efficient way to get the crystals needed to reroll is to do afk-fishing. Theres plenty of p2w you can exploit right now in exchange for merets. As long as people have merets to spend they will find a way :V

    Funny how people don't like to mention these things

    How about premium club, is being able to teleport to any map in the game saving you hundreds of hours traveling through maps in exchange for merets p2w? Right now they're giving out rotors like crazy through monopoly event, but that wont last.

    why do you think they're giving out exactly 500 red merets with tomorrows reset if not to get f2p players to buy 1 month of premium club?
  • kitomisaitichikitomisaitichi
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 675
    Posts: 20
    Member
    What is everyone winning here? A PvE game and a small leaderboard that only the most elite of the elite guilds care about. You can choose to spend more time or money, it's a pretty good trade off. The additional time and money is well-balanced. You can get extremely fast mounts in game, or buy them. You can only grind movement speed buffs through the prestige system. You can get some small EXP buff and teleport instantly or heals more. If anything, this is merely pay to save time. You still need to grind your #ss off to get your gear. All in all, the hours that you save on spending money on this game, and the additional small awards like getting trophies for having all instruments and being a few ranks more on your leaderboard for the guild is hardly pay2win. Winning implies you are comparing yourself relative to other players in some general competitive aspect that everyone cares about like PvP, some fuzzy leaderboard rankings and being in the top 0.2% of players with a high skill level to dodge attacks, high level of attack execution and generous funds for some HP potions running in some limited time dungeon giving some 2 week expiry belt and a small temporary buff potion in my eyes is not going to make you the #1 leader of PvE. Everyone will be able to do raids, everyone will be able to do dungeons, exactly how is it p2w when everyone is progressing almost at the same linear rate proportional to their time investment, exception of RNG?


    The 20% Xp buff and premium dungeon mesos, yes is an advantage, but measurably, relative to F2Ps how much more relative to the baseline is it so much so that any generic F2P and normal P2P player is going to be that much more different..? Unless you are at the elite level, investing 6-12hrs/day, which the majority are not I can hardly fanthom why this even matters. At that level you are already determined to spend on whatever advantages you can get, and you are willing to take days off work/family/friends to be on that #1 clear or leaderboard or some silly thing that the rest of the playerbase doesn't even care about.

    There is no truth. The truth is people are complaining about comparing relative players' level of progress when these people aren't even adding them to their friend's lists to check on them every week to be jealous or envious, and the majority of people are playing with their same group/friends/guild throughout the game. Casuals with casuals, hardcores with hardcores. Nobody gives a flying @ss that you got a +15 set gear because you made 6 accounts with 8 alts and activated premium on all of them, and mereted your way to every B4 dungeon unless you are hardcore hardcore, which already does not describe the average player in this game. The truth is people have the need to complain about every monetization scheme or business practice of every game when they are not willing to put the time into the game, or time into real life. If they really valued whatever they truely valued, they would of spend the time in the game or real life to get that money, or in-game currency to trade to get that unique snowflake costume. The reality is, artificial scarcity, uniqueness, rarity and getting advantages is a prime motive of many paying individuals and using that doesn't mean the game is automatically worse. This is why people argue about the magnitude of it, how much of it is necessary to do anything in this game, etc - and in my eyes, this game cannot be said to be p2w.

    You're not going to generate a bajillion onyx from simply being a paying player, you also have to be a playing player. If you're playing, you will already have some sense of achievement for yourself to return to the game. The truth is, statistically speaking, free to pay players are not going to be playing with pay to pay players the majority of the time besides the dungeon queue for generic dungeons. Yes, there are many people who do pick-up groups, but anyone can notice founders mostly were in founder guilds and had mostly founder requirements like high gear scores or trophies of which founder advantages conferred and selected for the most at the beginning. Paying players are most likely to have friends in real life who also have jobs, and also enjoy games, and also spend money. Same as obese people, same as any type of people because most people become friends with people who are similar to them. So I cannot see how paying and free to play players are going to hate themselves against one another.

    F2P players already determined at the beginning either they will spend when they feel they derive sufficient satisfaction in the game to warrant them to pay to get more advantages, or more social status from nicer cosmetics, or whatever things they more value as they play more while P2P players either have a lower threshold before they need spending, already derive greater satisifaction to justify spending, or are more competitive overall in getting advantages. Whatever it is, these two groups have no reason to hate each other for their spending habits and this game quite frankly does not limit itself to only f2p or p2p players, so whatever arguments people are making here are pretty much superfluous and pointless in retrospect.

    Out of all the people I run with, all the people I meet in this game, I hardly see anyone complaining that p2p players are destroying this game. If anything I see p2p players complaining about not getting enough value out of their purchases like style crates, but now that everything has a set price and people can choose to pay it or not, there's no reason left to complain about it. For trophies locked behind paying or doing events, very few people choose to be at the top for this. You can see this with the low 400 or 500 trophy requirement in the elite guilds which can be reached from doing most of the exploration achievements which any f2p can do with 12-16 hrs/day amassing 50-120 trophies a day if they wanted to. Someone needs to inform me what aspect of this game is so paying that other players are complaining on a daily basis in game. Even the world chats and channel chats are rarely needed to be used often, there's discord and various other channels of communication. You can befriend and whisper people. Nothing in this game is so restricted and so time-intensive to dissuade a f2p player from playing.
    BluclueTalnova