Check out the patch notes for the v20 Lovely Update here: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/55909/lovely-update-v20

Petition to Remove Fair Fight

Comments

  • TamakiSakuraTamakiSakura
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    Kizoja wrote: »
    Okay, so I'm unaware exactly how fair fight works at current end game (level 60s doing level 50 normal and hard dungeons).
    ...
    I personally like systems that allow higher levels to come in and do a dungeon with a lower level that prevents them from completely trivializing the content. A good example of this is FFXIV's syncing system. I like that I can do dungeons with my friends while they level without me ruining the content for them doing it their first time by one shotting everything. At the same time, FFXIV still allows me the option to unsync it if I want to, but it wouldn't really benefit me or anyone doing it with me unsynced in any way other than being able to 1 shot stuff. Also, in FFXIV you were slightly stronger than the dungeon's max item level if you were being synced down. You weren't as weak as someone the absolute max item level for that dungeon, but you also weren't going around 1 shotting everything.

    Fair Fight is basically Level Sync without the unsync tab.
  • RohuntRohunt
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    Kizoja wrote: »
    Okay, so I'm unaware exactly how fair fight works at current end game (level 60s doing level 50 normal and hard dungeons).
    ...
    I personally like systems that allow higher levels to come in and do a dungeon with a lower level that prevents them from completely trivializing the content. A good example of this is FFXIV's syncing system. I like that I can do dungeons with my friends while they level without me ruining the content for them doing it their first time by one shotting everything. At the same time, FFXIV still allows me the option to unsync it if I want to, but it wouldn't really benefit me or anyone doing it with me unsynced in any way other than being able to 1 shot stuff. Also, in FFXIV you were slightly stronger than the dungeon's max item level if you were being synced down. You weren't as weak as someone the absolute max item level for that dungeon, but you also weren't going around 1 shotting everything.

    Fair Fight is basically Level Sync without the unsync tab.

    Basically what Kizoja wrote is what I'm talking about-- Having someone just bunny hopping through dungeons, one shotting, skipping stuff and making all the mechanics and your own attempts look weak trivial doesn't help you at all later game and it's just super obnoxious and disheartening to me, in my opinion. Like, Imagine if you had just your friend carry you through 1-50 or higher level content and you just get to endgame, wanted to raid and not know what to do with your class.
  • TamakiSakuraTamakiSakura
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    Rohunt wrote: »
    Basically what Kizoja wrote is what I'm talking about-- Having someone just bunny hopping through dungeons, one shotting, skipping stuff and making all the mechanics and your own attempts look weak trivial doesn't help you at all later game and it's just super obnoxious and disheartening to me, in my opinion. Like, Imagine if you had just your friend carry you through 1-50 or higher level content and you just get to endgame, wanted to raid and not know what to do with your class.

    I've had friends offer to carry me through MMOs, but I've always refused. Learning your class is important. (I'm pro-Fair Fight, btw.)
  • JSLJSL
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    I like it how Korean version was set. No point of gear progression if my 4000 gear character can do dungeon the same way or worst than my 2100 can...
  • xtylextyle
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    edited 3:35PM October 13, 2018
    All I can say is Fair Fight is a terrible attempt to copy other game's mechanics. At least when it comes to being geared in Guild Wars 2 I can still clear lower level content more comfortably and efficiently than a newer/casual player but at the same time the content still poses a threat because even my Health and Defense gets reduced as well as requiring some knowledge on character and game mechanics. Fair fight is an amazing concept when done right but terrible with its current execution in Maplestory 2.There's nothing more annoying than doing even less damage than before just for being a level over. And it is even more annoying that the motto that introduced it was to make the content challenging yet there's no sense of danger because characters retain their health and defense that lower level field bosses doesn't even pose a threat. I'm all-in for Fair fight because GW2 did an amazing job but I'm not in for MS2's fair fight.
    Thendriks
  • KriptiniKriptini
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    Fair Fight is garbage for dungeons, please repeal it.
  • TheClarosVitaTheClarosVita
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    edited 10:25PM October 13, 2018
    TL;DR - FFXIV has level syncing, which functions the same as Fair Play. However, XIV also has undersized dungeons, which allow players to solo lower-level content with no stat restrictions. I motion to have such a system as undersizing implemented into MS2, where going into a dungeon solo removes the stat caps for you. My belief is that you should never be allowed to bullrush content while matchmaking since it detracts from the experience of those who want to enjoy the actual content and who aren't so focused on speedy clears. Also "CC to solo world boss" is a delusional, flawed argument because speed-killing trolls already exist for other mobs; allowing that for world bosses would be straight-up idiotic.

    ----

    I feel like removing it completely would detract from party play. Do you know how absolutely annoying it is to be brand new to a game and have some max-level, uber-powered player come in and just solo your dungeon for you? It prevents new players from learning their class, it makes it so that they don't even get to experience the content themselves, and it's honestly a surefire way to breed toxicity in the community. And let's be honest; Maple has always had a very toxic community compared to other games simply because it's free to play.

    I motion to have Fair Play removed, but ONLY FOR SOLO QUEUES. It's like the Undersizing mechanic in Final Fantasy XIV, which is one of the most loved and used mechanics for playing lower-tier content in that game. XIV also features a Fair Play-like system called Level Syncing, where every bit of content, (from dungeons to raids to world event quests), has a maximum level that it can be played at. Some content cannot be undersized since it detracts from the value of the achievement, (such as the Ultimate fights), or relies on party play and would break if it was allowed, (such as instanced expeditions like Eureka).

    I do agree that slogging through a dungeon while synced to the level of the dungeon after spending hours grinding and tons of mesos buying good gear is really stupid. But removing Fair Play entirely would entirely ruin party play for almost every part of the game. If you want to speed-run a dungeon, you should not be allowed to do so in matchmade content. Period end.

    Lastly, I would like to rant a bit here on the topic of world bosses, because your logic is so incredibly flawed that it beggars belief. Having the mindset of "just CC and solo it" is scummy, because you would have to be stupid to think that there would be any world bosses allowed to spawn with all the 50+ players channel hopping to speed-kill them. Why would players stop at one kill? If the benefits continue with subsequent kills, then what's to stop them from sniping world bosses on EVERY CHANNEL? And even if the rewards didn't persist, we already have scumbags sitting on story-required mobs and bursting them down so nobody can get them, just to be jerks. If you seriously think that having open-world content be unsynced would be a good thing, you are either delusional or part of the problem.

    EDIT: Actually looking through the replies now and... WOW. Y'all are a bunch of selfish, entitled kids aren't you? There are other solutions than "remove it". But no, feel free to think that removing Fair Play from matchmade content would make for a better game. They added it for a reason. It should be removed from solo play, but y'all don't care about other players; you're all about "lol muh speedrunz". Get over yourselves. lmfao
    xtyleTamakiSakuraCylil
  • HashtagHealsHashtagHeals
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    NXACuddles wrote: »
    Hi Maplers. Thanks for expressing your concerns regarding Fair Fight. Just wanted to update everyone that this is a very high priority item that our team is looking into. Mods and myself will forward this thread to the team. :-)

    Surprised we haven't heard much since this post since it has been almost 2 months.
  • KoshieKoshie
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    edited 10:52PM October 13, 2018
    I love being level 60 and doing less damage than level 50's with the same exact gear.

    Nexon get rid of this system or fix it, it doesn't work in it's current state
  • EpicGamesEmployeeEpicGamesEmployee
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    Please either remove fair fight or nerf it to the ground. It's an illogical, backwards system that disincentivizes character progression and is ruining the experience for the majority of end game players. I'm surprised Nexon has not taken action against this already as a large amount of negative feedback to this system has been ongoing for months now. The game just released a few days ago, it's only a matter of time before new players experience this atrocity and quit before giving Nexon a chance to hotfix this. I'm expecting this to be addressed in the next patch notes, I'm sure everyone will be disappointed if it isn't.
  • kitomisaitichikitomisaitichi
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 675
    Posts: 20
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    TL;DR - FFXIV has level syncing, which functions the same as Fair Play. However, XIV also has undersized dungeons, which allow players to solo lower-level content with no stat restrictions. I motion to have such a system as undersizing implemented into MS2, where going into a dungeon solo removes the stat caps for you. My belief is that you should never be allowed to bullrush content while matchmaking since it detracts from the experience of those who want to enjoy the actual content and who aren't so focused on speedy clears. Also "CC to solo world boss" is a delusional, flawed argument because speed-killing trolls already exist for other mobs; allowing that for world bosses would be straight-up idiotic.

    ----

    I feel like removing it completely would detract from party play. Do you know how absolutely annoying it is to be brand new to a game and have some max-level, uber-powered player come in and just solo your dungeon for you? It prevents new players from learning their class, it makes it so that they don't even get to experience the content themselves, and it's honestly a surefire way to breed toxicity in the community. And let's be honest; Maple has always had a very toxic community compared to other games simply because it's free to play.

    I motion to have Fair Play removed, but ONLY FOR SOLO QUEUES. It's like the Undersizing mechanic in Final Fantasy XIV, which is one of the most loved and used mechanics for playing lower-tier content in that game. XIV also features a Fair Play-like system called Level Syncing, where every bit of content, (from dungeons to raids to world event quests), has a maximum level that it can be played at. Some content cannot be undersized since it detracts from the value of the achievement, (such as the Ultimate fights), or relies on party play and would break if it was allowed, (such as instanced expeditions like Eureka).

    I do agree that slogging through a dungeon while synced to the level of the dungeon after spending hours grinding and tons of mesos buying good gear is really stupid. But removing Fair Play entirely would entirely ruin party play for almost every part of the game. If you want to speed-run a dungeon, you should not be allowed to do so in matchmade content. Period end.

    Lastly, I would like to rant a bit here on the topic of world bosses, because your logic is so incredibly flawed that it beggars belief. Having the mindset of "just CC and solo it" is scummy, because you would have to be stupid to think that there would be any world bosses allowed to spawn with all the 50+ players channel hopping to speed-kill them. Why would players stop at one kill? If the benefits continue with subsequent kills, then what's to stop them from sniping world bosses on EVERY CHANNEL? And even if the rewards didn't persist, we already have scumbags sitting on story-required mobs and bursting them down so nobody can get them, just to be jerks. If you seriously think that having open-world content be unsynced would be a good thing, you are either delusional or part of the problem.

    EDIT: Actually looking through the replies now and... WOW. Y'all are a bunch of selfish, entitled kids aren't you? There are other solutions than "remove it". But no, feel free to think that removing Fair Play from matchmade content would make for a better game. They added it for a reason. It should be removed from solo play, but y'all don't care about other players; you're all about "lol muh speedrunz". Get over yourselves. lmfao

    Wrong. The first 5 channels can have fair fight, while the rest don't. Solves your gg can't get a channel to get my quest done mentality.
    As an incentive, 2x loots and 1.5x XP so people don't only do the other channels.

    For dungeons, remove fair fight unless the dungeon level difference between the minimum and maximum character is 20 or over, and also reduce fair fight's nerfing capabilities by 25%.

    For all other bosses, simply multiply the damage by 10 and square root it. This simply reduces the maximum spread of damage dealt, so you don't get something stupid like 25,000 GS players 1 shotting bosses.
  • CylilCylil
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    I personally think Fair Fight should be balancing the group or squad going into the dungeons, rather than balancing the squad based on the instance they run.

    I'll admit, I'm not too well versed in this whole Fair Fight aspect, and how it works, but (from what I'm gathering) it seems to be implemented so veteran/op players don't one shot every enemy and solo rush the boss before any player has a chance to even get to it.

    My main concern isn't with players having too high dps and gearscore, but rather veterans running with potentially newer players and sorta ruining the fun for those new players experiences.
    If all party members of a group in dungeons are all high lvl/high gear scored veterans, then sure, I don't see why Fair Fight shouldn't be balancing their gear around their own squad and stats, but (say) if one veteran jumped into a low level dungeon with low level'd squad members, I don't think the veteran should be able to freely squash and solo race through the dungeon.

    I'm still rather adept at the whole Fair Fight mechanic, so feel free to counter any points of mine that aren't accurate, or to perhaps educate me better on how it works.
  • lillucariolillucario
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,895
    Posts: 102
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    edited 8:42AM October 14, 2018
    TL;DR - FFXIV has level syncing, which functions the same as Fair Play. However, XIV also has undersized dungeons, which allow players to solo lower-level content with no stat restrictions. I motion to have such a system as undersizing implemented into MS2, where going into a dungeon solo removes the stat caps for you. My belief is that you should never be allowed to bullrush content while matchmaking since it detracts from the experience of those who want to enjoy the actual content and who aren't so focused on speedy clears. Also "CC to solo world boss" is a delusional, flawed argument because speed-killing trolls already exist for other mobs; allowing that for world bosses would be straight-up idiotic.

    ----

    I feel like removing it completely would detract from party play. Do you know how absolutely annoying it is to be brand new to a game and have some max-level, uber-powered player come in and just solo your dungeon for you? It prevents new players from learning their class, it makes it so that they don't even get to experience the content themselves, and it's honestly a surefire way to breed toxicity in the community. And let's be honest; Maple has always had a very toxic community compared to other games simply because it's free to play.

    I motion to have Fair Play removed, but ONLY FOR SOLO QUEUES. It's like the Undersizing mechanic in Final Fantasy XIV, which is one of the most loved and used mechanics for playing lower-tier content in that game. XIV also features a Fair Play-like system called Level Syncing, where every bit of content, (from dungeons to raids to world event quests), has a maximum level that it can be played at. Some content cannot be undersized since it detracts from the value of the achievement, (such as the Ultimate fights), or relies on party play and would break if it was allowed, (such as instanced expeditions like Eureka).

    I do agree that slogging through a dungeon while synced to the level of the dungeon after spending hours grinding and tons of mesos buying good gear is really stupid. But removing Fair Play entirely would entirely ruin party play for almost every part of the game. If you want to speed-run a dungeon, you should not be allowed to do so in matchmade content. Period end.

    Lastly, I would like to rant a bit here on the topic of world bosses, because your logic is so incredibly flawed that it beggars belief. Having the mindset of "just CC and solo it" is scummy, because you would have to be stupid to think that there would be any world bosses allowed to spawn with all the 50+ players channel hopping to speed-kill them. Why would players stop at one kill? If the benefits continue with subsequent kills, then what's to stop them from sniping world bosses on EVERY CHANNEL? And even if the rewards didn't persist, we already have scumbags sitting on story-required mobs and bursting them down so nobody can get them, just to be jerks. If you seriously think that having open-world content be unsynced would be a good thing, you are either delusional or part of the problem.

    EDIT: Actually looking through the replies now and... WOW. Y'all are a bunch of selfish, entitled kids aren't you? There are other solutions than "remove it". But no, feel free to think that removing Fair Play from matchmade content would make for a better game. They added it for a reason. It should be removed from solo play, but y'all don't care about other players; you're all about "lol muh speedrunz". Get over yourselves. lmfao

    General agreement that I'm seeing from most people is that it should there for all content under 50 and world bosses. For content at level 50 and higher it's currently stupid because we have no level 60 content. All the new dungeons released started at level 50 and a new cap just released so of course people are going to level to 60 almost ASAP. Then they get to 60 and felt like it was a mistake because now they're worse off in the content simply because they leveled more instead of staying at 50. The new dungeons they added don't have fair fight but before the cap increase people have been doing FD and Balrog. So they more than likely +10 their weapon at least so they have no choice but to keep doing those 2 dungeons unless they want to completely restart on enhancing their wep and go for one of the weapons in the new ones where FF isn't a thing. We shouldn't have to completely restart gearing or feel like we didn't progress because they release a new cap but not give any content actually relevant to said cap. You can try and call people selfish but leveling to the new cap should not feel like a detriment in any game like it does now.

    Also the thing about FFXIV and this game is that in this game you can actually solo the dungeons before level 50. Which some people already do while leveling. Party play will still be there once they reach 50. And nothing is going to take away party play from the later dungeons with how they're designed so it won't be ruined.
    LouvainElderGoblin
  • KasorasKasoras
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  • Keroberus2Keroberus2
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    There needs to be some kind of minor restriction to gear power if you're queuing with people who are notably lower than you if you're searching for a party via the game's search system, because if you're joining a group of new players who are like level 25 and you're level 60 with Best in Slot gear, fully upgraded, they're going to have 0 immersion and playing experience as you one shot the dungeon.

    HOWEVER, apart from that, there should not be a restriction in gear when you queue with people, and that restriction should only apply to low level content. Anything 50+, this should have no effect towards. When you're fully geared out and a level 50 can essentially outhit you in black market bought blue gear because they've not got the debuff...What's the point in progression exactly? There is none.

    Remove this, or re-work how it works at lower levels through the game's searching system, but don't force this debuff on you everywhere. If you queue alone, or queue with friends, this debuff should not exist.
  • XxPoseidonxXXxPoseidonxX
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    just remove fair fight, it's pointless. Leave it on world bosses. That's it.
    Nikynoonoo
  • NikynoonooNikynoonoo
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    It's fine on the world bosses but it has no business being anywhere else if you're so concerned about higher levels being paired with lower ones in a dungeon then actually implement some form of matchmaking.
  • NilremNilrem
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 6,050
    Posts: 290
    Maple Guide
    As one may clearly know, the "Fair Fight" status exists for world bosses and all current dungeons.

    Fair fight lowers your stats if your level is higher than said boss/dungeon in an attempt to keep things challenging. To keep things "fair."
    However, while this sounded good on paper, a lot of rising concerns are beginning to exist due to this system.

    The suggestion of this topic, like another, is to remove fair fight or limit it to world bosses.

    However, to keep things relevant otherwise, I shall be listing the various current and potential future concerns this system brings.

    - Leveling up to 60 greatly weakens a player in Level 50 normal and hard dungeons, even if they have the same gear stats as a level 50.
    - Leveling up is now a punishment instead of a reward due to how fair fight works.
    - Speedrun goals in hard adventure dungeons either now carry far less meaning or are borderline impossible due to inability of growth.
    - Personal challenges such as hard dungeon solo runs are more painful than ever.
    - Solo runs of lower level normal dungeons do not allow players to feel any sort of growth.
    - If a player is doing story and is even one level above a dungeon, they are nerfed despite having no gear advantage.
    - If a player doing story is forced to do a dungeon solo when over-leveled, the difficulty is raised for no good reason.
    - In the long term, leveling will only become more and more of a punishment unless something is done.
    - In the long term, parties will eventually barely exist or stop existing for normal adventure dungeons and some hard dungeons.

    If you have anything more to add, feel free to post what you noticed yourself.
    lillucarioLouvainSuperFunkWagonMS2Introduction
  • DekoDeko
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    Keep "Fair fight" for open world, but remove it for everything else.
  • SkengsSkengs
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    remove, keep it on world bosses on you must even if its stupid