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Build variation - 35-39k dps in FD

StabbieStabbie
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edited 10:48AM November 2, 2018 in Thief
After trying A LOT of builds on my thief, I came up with a good build that doesn't require SA/Meso/Retaliation to be efficient. Also, i found out that 1 points in SA was holding me back on dps and I gained a good 5-6k dps just by removing SA from my bars. Here's why I think it helped me: Ruthless Guile is just too good. The time it takes to re-apply both poison and benefit from the extra 22% poison damage when you have both poisons up is just a loss in dps.

The goal of this build is to re-apply both poison when they are about to expire by throwing a vial every 8-9 sec and doing the 5 hit combo of poison edge (even if at 5 stacks already to take advantage of RG extra damage) before it expire to proc the dot everytime. Outside of that I use kick on cd and rapid cut with CT procs.

This build might not work for everyone, but this is the one that give me the best results.

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My FD runs are around 36k dps and my best one (yet) is 39k :

unknown.png

Edit : I just noticed that I had my stats into max crit instead of all into luck. I don't know if that helped me get more dps or If I could have done more with all luck, I will give more feedback after the reset with the same build but all stats into luck!

Comments

  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    Can confirm, damage on a single dummy went from 120k-125k, to a little over 130k without SA (had to stay immobile the whole time though). The bigger difference in FD might have to do with fair fight scaling, and also because you might have had a better priest (and wizard) buffing you.
  • FerrionFerrion
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    edited 3:02PM November 2, 2018
    Im kind of on the fence with luck and crit myself, since the stat tracker gives you more "attack" value with points in crit than luck, but obviously luck is more leveled out since its bonus isn't pure RNG.

    I'll compare this build with my current one and post results to add to the discussion. I'll do test dummies and then a short fard test.


    Edit:
    So I'll admit this fared better than other "hybrid" builds I've seen. Both tests were using haste as a 1 minute timer.

    DUMMY TEST
    MGP : 3,396,797
    VCH : 3,477,913
    About the same, even a bit better by a slight margin.

    FARD TEST
    MGP :1,392,012
    VCH :1,239,830

    So on dummies we see the VC hybrid does 2.3% more damage
    On the live target of Pyrros Fard though, MGP does 12.27% more damage.
    I'd imagine the upcoming fair fight changes will favor MGP over the hybrid further.

    Also I feel using BD for evasion is largely pointless. It takes cunning, 26 spirit, and 3 points to potentially(82%) dodge something. While back-step's triple cast allows for easily side stepping everything that can be avoided for positive spirit gain, and only one skill point(provided we're talking no MGP still.)
    I do see though you're on keyboard, and I've heard aiming backstep is more difficult than on controller
  • StabbieStabbie
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    edited 3:52PM November 2, 2018
    Can confirm, damage on a single dummy went from 120k-125k, to a little over 130k without SA (had to stay immobile the whole time though). The bigger difference in FD might have to do with fair fight scaling, and also because you might have had a better priest (and wizard) buffing you.

    Thank you for trying the build out. And yeah the difference might be that, but I also think my 4% piercing buff ran out too during the run. Also, I just bought varrekant's wings and added some more attack speed, I will post result after my runs if it made a difference. I regret +'ing FD weapon and would have prefered balrog. Attackspeed seem really good on thief...
    Ferrion wrote: »
    Im kind of on the fence with luck and crit myself, since the stat tracker gives you more "attack" value with points in crit than luck, but obviously luck is more leveled out since its bonus isn't pure RNG.


    Edit:
    So I'll admit this fared better than other "hybrid" builds I've seen. Both tests were using haste as a 1 minute timer.

    Yeah I use keyboard, and I modified my buiild a little before posting it here (I prefer to run without bladedance because 80% dodge is just not reliable. Yes it look shiny, but when you die or almost die because chances are not on your side it is annoying. I just invest those 2 saved points into kick)

    Thank you for trying it out guys. Any of you will stick with it ?
  • KyuukeiKyuukei
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    edited 9:05PM November 2, 2018
    Am using the same build, well almost. I don't got blade dance with me but I got quick step on lv.1 , double slash on 9 because had no more skillpoints left. Wish I had so much piercing though

    Edit: But I do understand the point with atk speed weapons, was talking with someone before about it. But had my weapons +13/+11 before it changed so too lazy to start farming new daggers :/
  • anigzanigz
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    Hate to break it to you guys, but SA build is superior to every other build. It's purely about execution & timing and tracking everything.

    Here's my statistics and I do 125k DPS on the dummy.

    5f26972aebe3f1ca12fb99b9e323b748.png

    Nothing comes close to Surprise Attack build. I've spent probably over 100 hours testing every single possible build in this game on house dummies, nothing is even close, it's completely outmatching every other build when executed perfectly. I'm sure if I had my remaining 2 skill points unlocked I'd probably match your 130k DPS with so much less gear.

    As for my FD DPS, I've managed to get 32-33k DPS when solo'ing it. Took me just around ~25-26 minutes to solo clear it, no external buffs.
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    edited 12:50AM November 3, 2018
    anigz wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you guys, but SA build is superior to every other build. It's purely about execution & timing and tracking everything.

    Here's my statistics and I do 125k DPS on the dummy.

    Nothing comes close to Surprise Attack build. I've spent probably over 100 hours testing every single possible build in this game on house dummies, nothing is even close, it's completely outmatching every other build when executed perfectly. I'm sure if I had my remaining 2 skill points unlocked I'd probably match your 130k DPS with so much less gear.

    As for my FD DPS, I've managed to get 32-33k DPS when solo'ing it. Took me just around ~25-26 minutes to solo clear it, no external buffs.

    Good for you, I can hit 140k on the dummy now after I upgraded my offhand to +13 just earlier today. And yes, this is only on a single dummy, I even aimed my vial so that I only hit one. I've also tested and I can hit 35k in the first 10 minutes of FD solo now, no buffs.

    Now putting aside our epeen comparisons.

    I tested once more since the test I did earlier wasn't very thorough (I only really tested like once or twice for the build and my own, because I was in a hurry to do something else)

    I tried OP's build with and without surprise attack again, this time doing it multiple times over. It seems that there actually isn't much difference. They all seem to linger above 135k, and spiking at as high as around 144k (this is when I have both poisons up, get lucky with a lot of cunning procs, and then hit with surprise). Of course, the surprise attack tests had higher spikes, but the results really vary. I think this really has to do with how lucky I get with cunning procs.

    Also, I think one of the reasons my test earlier had better results for no-SA build is because I used a 6 PE 1 SA build in the SA test, while the no-SA test had 10 PE. Once I did it with 10 PE for both tests, the difference just disappeared, so it really had more to do with me not maxing PE that made the SA test results weak (I took out points from kick and run max PE in my build now)

    Conclusion: play whatever you want. I will still keep 1 point in SA because I use it in mobbing too (plus it's just 1 point, won't kill me). SA will technically give you better results if you play absolutely perfectly because of the higher spikes, but in practice, that's very difficult to pull off.
  • anigzanigz
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    Good for you, I can hit 140k on the dummy now after I upgraded my offhand to +13 just earlier today. And yes, this is only on a single dummy, I even aimed my vial so that I only hit one. I've also tested and I can hit 35k in the first 10 minutes of FD solo now, no buffs.

    Now putting aside our epeen comparisons.

    I tested once more since the test I did earlier wasn't very thorough (I only really tested like once or twice for the build and my own, because I was in a hurry to do something else)

    I tried OP's build with and without surprise attack again, this time doing it multiple times over. It seems that there actually isn't much difference. They all seem to linger above 135k, and spiking at as high as around 144k (this is when I have both poisons up, get lucky with a lot of cunning procs, and then hit with surprise). Of course, the surprise attack tests had higher spikes, but the results really vary. I think this really has to do with how lucky I get with cunning procs.

    Also, I think one of the reasons my test earlier had better results for no-SA build is because I used a 6 PE 1 SA build in the SA test, while the no-SA test had 10 PE. Once I did it with 10 PE for both tests, the difference just disappeared, so it really had more to do with me not maxing PE that made the SA test results weak (I took out points from kick and run max PE in my build now)

    Conclusion: play whatever you want. I will still keep 1 point in SA because I use it in mobbing too (plus it's just 1 point, won't kill me). SA will technically give you better results if you play absolutely perfectly because of the higher spikes, but in practice, that's very difficult to pull off.

    I wasn't trying to compare e-peens, just stating that any build outside of SA is currently inferior. No matter what, there is always a 5-10% difference in SA build VS the next best builds, and even higher if you can execute it perfectly.

    I was showing my statistics and data so that people can compare the numbers themselves and find out what they're doing wrong if they're close to my gear and not close to my damage, or if they have better gear and aren't able to surpass that damage. The reason I wrote what I wrote is for those who read to know that basically its the optimal DPS you can achieve with that gear. I'm not claiming to have the highest DPS in the game, lol. Congratulations on your 135k DPS, not sure what your gear is, but if you're +14 mainhand +13 offhand that sounds about right where you should be.

    Anyway, if you have SA at 1 point and put points into something else you're still missing DPS but I'm too lazy to go over it with you and it'll probably be an "epeen comparison" for you anyway. Just try to practice SA build and if you can perfect the rotation it'll be much much higher DPS. It allows Thief to compete with everyone else. I'm able to perfectly execute the rotation in FD even though FD is one of the most annoying bosses due to its movement and everything but its very easy to maintain the rotation once you have it memorized (muscle memory).
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    edited 3:31AM November 3, 2018
    anigz wrote: »
    I wasn't trying to compare e-peens, just stating that any build outside of SA is currently inferior. No matter what, there is always a 5-10% difference in SA build VS the next best builds, and even higher if you can execute it perfectly.

    I was showing my statistics and data so that people can compare the numbers themselves and find out what they're doing wrong if they're close to my gear and not close to my damage, or if they have better gear and aren't able to surpass that damage. The reason I wrote what I wrote is for those who read to know that basically its the optimal DPS you can achieve with that gear. I'm not claiming to have the highest DPS in the game, lol. Congratulations on your 135k DPS, not sure what your gear is, but if you're +14 mainhand +13 offhand that sounds about right where you should be.

    Anyway, if you have SA at 1 point and put points into something else you're still missing DPS but I'm too lazy to go over it with you and it'll probably be an "epeen comparison" for you anyway. Just try to practice SA build and if you can perfect the rotation it'll be much much higher DPS. It allows Thief to compete with everyone else. I'm able to perfectly execute the rotation in FD even though FD is one of the most annoying bosses due to its movement and everything but its very easy to maintain the rotation once you have it memorized (muscle memory).

    Your initial comment came of to me as very belittling while not contributing anything helpful other than "my build is the best, you all just need play perfectly like me", I'll apologize if my response seemed overly hostile towards you.

    If I give up points on skills that don't provide immediate damage and put more into SA, obviously the tests would read higher since the only difference between that and the other tests is a higher level SA. And you're implying that I don't know how to watch poison timers and throw out SA right before it ends. Putting aside how well you can execute it in actual dungeons, it's nothing special to do SA rotations "perfectly" on an immobile dummy, which is what my testing is focused on.
    Vendal
  • KyuukeiKyuukei
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    edited 6:13AM November 3, 2018
    anigz wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you guys, but SA build is superior to every other build.
    Glad it works for you. But if I spend points on SA I will regulary lose 7-10 k dps on the guild dummy. So the "superior"build isn't working out for me
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    Kyuukei wrote: »
    anigz wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you guys, but SA build is superior to every other build.
    Glad it works for you. But if I spend points on SA I will regulary lose 7-10 k dps on the guild dummy. So the "superior"build isn't working out for me

    Lol according to Kyuukei, if its not working for you, obviously your doing it wrong, and you need to do it perfectly like he does. There's no possible way that it's not the superior build, it's just you. /s


    Also Kyuukei, maybe your post would be received better if you didn't sound so full of yourself in them.
  • KyuukeiKyuukei
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    edited 9:12AM November 3, 2018
    SentineIs wrote: »
    Lol according to Kyuukei, if its not working for you, obviously your doing it wrong, and you need to do it perfectly like he does. There's no possible way that it's not the superior build, it's just you. /s


    Also Kyuukei, maybe your post would be received better if you didn't sound so full of yourself in them.
    At least I don't go around and say stuff similar to "Heheheh look I outdps you with worse gear hehehe" instead would give out advice, hint things out to make stuff better. So sounding "full of myself", I bet you didn't read his comment then. But whatever, go on with your insultings ;)
    [Edit]: Could be that SA gets stronger with other substats. But at least I don't tell others that they suck at it, just pointed it that right now it would be a damage loss for me:P
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    Kyuukei wrote: »
    SentineIs wrote: »
    Lol according to Kyuukei, if its not working for you, obviously your doing it wrong, and you need to do it perfectly like he does. There's no possible way that it's not the superior build, it's just you. /s


    Also Kyuukei, maybe your post would be received better if you didn't sound so full of yourself in them.
    At least I don't go around and say stuff similar to "Heheheh look I outdps you with worse gear hehehe" instead would give out advice, hint things out to make stuff better. So sounding "full of myself", I bet you didn't read his comment then. But whatever, go on with your insultings ;)
    [Edit]: Could be that SA gets stronger with other substats. But at least I don't tell others that they suck at it, just pointed it that right now it would be a damage loss for me:P

    Oh crap. That was meant to be for the op not you kyuu. Sorry mb
  • KyuukeiKyuukei
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    edited 9:55AM November 3, 2018
    SentineIs wrote: »
    Oh crap. That was meant to be for the op not you kyuu. Sorry mb

    ah already, than sorry if I sounded snappy, trying to improve myself and it slightly hurt my feeling D:
    [Edit] But it also could be because at least dummy wise SA at times deals damage but doesn't remove poison stacks.
    But anyways that's why I try out suggested builds in here to get a bit more dps, because there might be something nice I could miss
  • anigzanigz
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    To clarify, I didn't even come up with the SA build, it's the same one everyone has been saying is the best. I'm not claiming "my build" is the best, just stating that the best build has already been found by others, and its the SA build. Anyway sorry for coming off as arrogant or egotistical.

    Max auto, poisons, guile, SA, haste, the rest of the points are irrelevant. Only use poisons and SA and kick for damage.

    It's actually an easy build after you practice it, takes a while to get it down i'll admit but not too long. If you are losing DPS putting in SA there's something fatally wrong in the execution because even if you do it a bit poorly it should at least match the DPS of the next best build. If you can record a 1 minute video of you fighting a dummy I can try to help pinpoint what you can change to maximize your DPS.
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    anigz wrote: »
    To clarify, I didn't even come up with the SA build, it's the same one everyone has been saying is the best. I'm not claiming "my build" is the best, just stating that the best build has already been found by others, and its the SA build. Anyway sorry for coming off as arrogant or egotistical.

    Max auto, poisons, guile, SA, haste, the rest of the points are irrelevant. Only use poisons and SA and kick for damage.

    It's actually an easy build after you practice it, takes a while to get it down i'll admit but not too long. If you are losing DPS putting in SA there's something fatally wrong in the execution because even if you do it a bit poorly it should at least match the DPS of the next best build. If you can record a 1 minute video of you fighting a dummy I can try to help pinpoint what you can change to maximize your DPS.

    Yeah, this response sounds much more constructive. I was of the opinion that the community was still discussing what the best build was. I agree SA is one of the best builds, but I disagree that it is without contest.

    The problem with arguing that SA is best build, and if you do less dps your doing it wrong, is that, that argument can be used for other builds as well. You have to substantiate it with numbers that people can compare it to, and other builds you've compared it to, if your going to want to convince others.


    I can just as easily say, if your running guile hybrid build and your not pulling higher dps then SA then your not pulling off the hybrid build properly. On top of that, builds vary significantly in effectiveness depending on the dungeon mechanics as well. I will say that SA may be the best build in Fire Dragon due to how much he moves around, but a build with VC can outpace it if a priest is in the party.

    TLDR there is no single best build. It varies based on the situation, party comp, and skill level. Even executed perfectly, your party comp and dungeon would still be large factors that change the optimal build. There are several "best" builds imo that all serve their own niche, and SA is definitely one of them.


  • boogerbooger
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    anigz wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you guys, but SA build is superior to every other build. It's purely about execution & timing and tracking everything.

    Here's my statistics and I do 125k DPS on the dummy.

    Nothing comes close to Surprise Attack build. I've spent probably over 100 hours testing every single possible build in this game on house dummies, nothing is even close, it's completely outmatching every other build when executed perfectly. I'm sure if I had my remaining 2 skill points unlocked I'd probably match your 130k DPS with so much less gear.

    As for my FD DPS, I've managed to get 32-33k DPS when solo'ing it. Took me just around ~25-26 minutes to solo clear it, no external buffs.

    Good for you, I can hit 140k on the dummy now after I upgraded my offhand to +13 just earlier today. And yes, this is only on a single dummy, I even aimed my vial so that I only hit one. I've also tested and I can hit 35k in the first 10 minutes of FD solo now, no buffs.

    Now putting aside our epeen comparisons.

    I tested once more since the test I did earlier wasn't very thorough (I only really tested like once or twice for the build and my own, because I was in a hurry to do something else)

    I tried OP's build with and without surprise attack again, this time doing it multiple times over. It seems that there actually isn't much difference. They all seem to linger above 135k, and spiking at as high as around 144k (this is when I have both poisons up, get lucky with a lot of cunning procs, and then hit with surprise). Of course, the surprise attack tests had higher spikes, but the results really vary. I think this really has to do with how lucky I get with cunning procs.

    Also, I think one of the reasons my test earlier had better results for no-SA build is because I used a 6 PE 1 SA build in the SA test, while the no-SA test had 10 PE. Once I did it with 10 PE for both tests, the difference just disappeared, so it really had more to do with me not maxing PE that made the SA test results weak (I took out points from kick and run max PE in my build now)

    Conclusion: play whatever you want. I will still keep 1 point in SA because I use it in mobbing too (plus it's just 1 point, won't kill me). SA will technically give you better results if you play absolutely perfectly because of the higher spikes, but in practice, that's very difficult to pull off.

    What's your full skill build / advanced stats (items)? I'd be really interested because I struggle to get 30k dps on FD and can only manage like 100k on the dummies. I'm doing the no SA poison build and using +14 and +10 ancient runes on my weapons as well and I noticed you were an ancient rune user too :(
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    booger wrote: »
    What's your full skill build / advanced stats (items)? I'd be really interested because I struggle to get 30k dps on FD and can only manage like 100k on the dummies. I'm doing the no SA poison build and using +14 and +10 ancient runes on my weapons as well and I noticed you were an ancient rune user too :(

    I run the guile+cuts hybrid build. Max cuts, haste, guile, slash, edge... other than these skills, I make small changes here and there constantly, to kind of experiment. As for advanced stats, I've been investing a lot more into attack speed recently, 116% attack speed without buffs, and 138% with haste (146% with rune dagger buff). Fun fact though, around 140% attack speed is enough to do 2 double slashes in 1 jump with no landing lag.

    And you should upgrade your offhand, that will help. Upgrading your offhand doesn't change your numbers in the status page by much, but it does in fact make a big impact on your actual damage.
    booger
  • anigzanigz
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    I just enchanted my main hand weapon to +15, here are my new numbers.

    Dummy DPS: ~181k
    Dummy Damage per minute: ~10.8mil
    FD DPS: 42k (could go higher if I attempt it many more times, I only did 1 run after I got +15 mainhand because I'm unsure if I want to +15 offhand).

    This is with SA build of course. I know it was said earlier that "perhaps the reason SA build seems good to you is because you cannot execute other builds properly", so maybe someone who can execute other builds can try to match this DPS with +15/+13 weapon, or even +15/+15 weapons. Personally don't think it would be possible, but I welcome others to try because it would prove other builds can match the SA build which I say is impossible. Also, once I get Kandura's / Fairy Belt / +15 offhand, I expect that number to become 200k DPS, so if anyone is actually max geared like that and can beat 200k DPS I'd love to see that build as well.

    I have no crazy accessories either, no Kandura's Pendant, no Fairy Belt, actually all blue accessories except Absolute Earrings and Varr. Wings. Just decent stat blues.
  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    Basically out of 68 points they're all exclusively put in Double Slash, Poison Edge, Poison Vial, Surprise Attack, Ruthless Guile, and Haste. No cunning tactics nor quickstep? While the gameplay I did was fight against the CD timer to reapply poisons.

    Seems really luck base hoping you get cunning for edge this way under strict timeline, unless there's extra skill points I don't know about. After testing it for quite some time, I'm not seeing it outbeat vicious guile. This build's high point is 80k dps every surprise attack, consistent 76-77k dps; vs vicious guile 82-83k with occasional 84k spikes. And because I'm not use to it there are some really god awful low points for surprise attack focus, but I've not seen anything about worth some big hullabaloo of best build 2018.

    As for the alternate gameplay of waiting until all 5 stacks+Vial are on the target waiting about to run out I didn't bother with that method because if that's the case I wouldn't bother using it at all. That's essentially a worse diablo 3 witch doctor's gameplay. I've played that character way too much to like that playstyle anymore. Spamming it every time it's up like somersault but trying to apply poisons between each surprise attack is pretty entertaining, would definitely make another skill page for it although definitely going to opt to free up 2 skill points next time used.

    However far as I can see thief has at least 6 different builds which decently alter it's focus, but I've yet to see any of them ridiculously outperform any to a point of making the rest unviable aside from certain situations of blade dance dodging kandura's accuracy wall which is niche.

    Vicious Guile
    Hybrid Vicious
    Surprise attack
    Poison Edge
    Blade Dance
    Mesoguard Plus

    Albeit considering pvp, hit run burst/dodge mode are tried and true better. But all of these I'd personally need to see some extra skillpoints in play or awakenings before some undoubtedly best build can be determined. As far as I can say, as long as you aren't doing pure vicious cuts only the build is good.
  • VendalVendal
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    Im not the best thief and I tend not to run SA builds often, BUT just wanna chime in with another Blade dance use.
    In balrog it makes soloing/surivivng without a tank or priest MUCH easier
    If you BD the second and third hit of the purple aoe you wont get stunned(the second hit is the one that stuns. third just for damage avoidance) nor be at high risk.

    PE/SA may still perform better overall in the fight, but it is very satisfying to stay mobile and dpsing while everyone else is stunned.