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Thief in Korea

SentineIsSentineIs
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in Thief
I'm just curious what the state of thief is in Korea. Like most ported games, it's unlikely that thief will change in NA unless the KR one gets buffed as well.

Have they been buffed in the Korean client? What do the people playing thief in korea think? Do they not think thief is underpowered or does post awakening fix their complaints?

I'm just curious if we have anything to look forward to or not.

Comments

  • DerpinatorDerpinator
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    SentineIs wrote: »
    I'm just curious what the state of thief is in Korea. Like most ported games, it's unlikely that thief will change in NA unless the KR one gets buffed as well.

    Have they been buffed in the Korean client? What do the people playing thief in korea think? Do they not think thief is underpowered or does post awakening fix their complaints?

    I'm just curious if we have anything to look forward to or not.
    So it all boils down to the opinions in Korea... That's quite a let down.
  • EphedrineEphedrine
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    edited 3:14PM October 29, 2018
    Don't quote me on this, but I've heard that Thief has been pretty much the same as it is here. Highest raw DPS, but hard to get it to work well, with it being a melee class, and a tough one at that. I'm pretty sure it hasn't been changed at all minus the sub-class.
  • GreenSoup2HoTGreenSoup2HoT
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    Hard to compare regions when they are so different.
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    Hard to compare regions when they are so different.

    Well KR obviously has the most up to date build, but any class change occurring there should occur here eventually.

    So looking towards Korea for any future thief changes is a good bet. My question is, since its been out way longer in KR has there been any changes? Or did the awakening fix the main problems?
  • FerrionFerrion
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    I wish I had the info itself, but from what I've heard the future class upgrades we get are actually pretty decent. So that with the fair fight changes will hopefully not only gives us a nice damage bump, but maybe make more build options?
  • ShawnyyShawnyy
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    Awakening make things slightly less complicated in terms of where is the damage coming from. In terms of major changes in damage and what not, no real change. Those that tell you otherwise are mistaken because if you break it down to brass tax, the raw class does not do as much damage as a lot of the other classes as well as the effort to reward ratio is concerned. To put it another way, the class is not AS but its still a class.
  • NightThiefNightThief
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    Shawnyy wrote: »
    Awakening make things slightly less complicated in terms of where is the damage coming from. In terms of major changes in damage and what not, no real change. Those that tell you otherwise are mistaken because if you break it down to brass tax, the raw class does not do as much damage as a lot of the other classes as well as the effort to reward ratio is concerned. To put it another way, the class is not AS but its still a class.

    Well I've had my fair share of questions to a bunch of Korean players and would like to say that you are increadibly WRONG.

    Thief gets a massive buff in a lot of cases, to list:
    1: No longer need to spend needless SP since we replace poison vial and edge with a new skill that does more damage
    2: SB is an upgraded VC
    3: We have access to three cunning and are capable of dodging multiple attacks much easier since we will use blade dance to avoid many attacks
    4: Surprise attack gets buffed by 150% but the cooldown gets doubled, still a huge buff!


    Here is a video of a thief out dpsing EVERYONE

    Skip to 2:27:00

    So TS, don't listen to what anyone here says till awakening comes it, trust me it is worth it and I've had actual Korean playerssome that don't even play thief) confirm this to me.
  • NightThiefNightThief
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    edited 9:39AM November 1, 2018
    NightThief wrote: »
    Shawnyy wrote: »
    Awakening make things slightly less complicated in terms of where is the damage coming from. In terms of major changes in damage and what not, no real change. Those that tell you otherwise are mistaken because if you break it down to brass tax, the raw class does not do as much damage as a lot of the other classes as well as the effort to reward ratio is concerned. To put it another way, the class is not AS but its still a class.

    Well I've had my fair share of questions to a bunch of Korean players and would like to say that you are increadibly WRONG.

    Thief gets a massive buff in a lot of cases, to list:
    1: No longer need to spend needless SP since we replace poison vial and edge with a new skill that does more damage
    2: SB is an upgraded VC
    3: We have access to three cunning and are capable of dodging multiple attacks much easier since we will use blade dance to avoid many attacks
    4: Surprise attack gets buffed by 150% but the cooldown gets doubled, still a huge buff!


    Here is a video of a thief out dpsing EVERYONE

    Skip to 2:27:00

    So TS, don't listen to what anyone here says till awakening comes it, trust me it is worth it and I've had actual Korean playerssome that don't even play thief) confirm this to me.


    Also here is another Video of a top RB that has a thief right behind him in terms of DPS, this is his live stream from earlier.


  • EmjaeEmjae
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    NightThief wrote: »
    Shawnyy wrote: »
    Awakening make things slightly less complicated in terms of where is the damage coming from. In terms of major changes in damage and what not, no real change. Those that tell you otherwise are mistaken because if you break it down to brass tax, the raw class does not do as much damage as a lot of the other classes as well as the effort to reward ratio is concerned. To put it another way, the class is not AS but its still a class.

    Here is a video of a thief out dpsing EVERYONE

    Skip to 2:27:00

    I was actually going to go on KMS2 inven to see what the Korean people actually think about Thieves but before that I need to point something out first.

    That video is quite misleading due to the fact that all the other party members had very poor gear. He even says he's top of the damage chart because the rest of the party is very weak. (2:29:15)

    I guess I can come back later and talk about what inven users think about Thieves.
  • EmjaeEmjae
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    edited 2:16PM November 1, 2018
    Yeah it didn't take me that long to figure out what people actually think. The forums are almost barren so there wasn't that much to read in the first place.

    From KMS2 forum and Inven, it seems like the general consensus for 2nd job (awakening) is pretty negative for Thieves.

    Ironcially 준게이, the Thief player from the NightThief's first video, says that Thief during the early KMS2 days was a "very strong" class and it's probably just that GMS2 players aren't use to the dps rotation yet. He also continues on saying that unless there was a balance change from the original KMS2 Thief 1st job, GMS2 Thief should be very strong, it's just that Thieves became crap after the 2nd job compared to the other classes.

    Take it as you will but it certainly doesn't seem like 2nd job is going to help Thieves.
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  • NightThiefNightThief
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    edited 4:05PM November 1, 2018
    Emjae wrote: »
    Yeah it didn't take me that long to figure out what people actually think. The forums are almost barren so there wasn't that much to read in the first place.

    From KMS2 forum and Inven, it seems like the general consensus for 2nd job (awakening) is pretty negative for Thieves.

    Ironcially 준게이, the Thief player from the NightThief's first video, says that Thief during the early KMS2 days was a "very strong" class and it's probably just that GMS2 players aren't use to the dps rotation yet. He also continues on saying that unless there was a balance change from the original KMS2 Thief 1st job, GMS2 Thief should be very strong, it's just that Thieves became crap after the 2nd job compared to the other classes.

    Take it as you will but it certainly doesn't seem like 2nd job is going to help Thieves.

    Well he told me that thief is a great class after 2nd job, same with a whole lot of Korean top players there. Unless he's saying different stuff to different audiences....
  • EmjaeEmjae
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    NightThief wrote: »
    Emjae wrote: »
    Yeah it didn't take me that long to figure out what people actually think. The forums are almost barren so there wasn't that much to read in the first place.

    From KMS2 forum and Inven, it seems like the general consensus for 2nd job (awakening) is pretty negative for Thieves.

    Ironcially 준게이, the Thief player from the NightThief's first video, says that Thief during the early KMS2 days was a "very strong" class and it's probably just that GMS2 players aren't use to the dps rotation yet. He also continues on saying that unless there was a balance change from the original KMS2 Thief 1st job, GMS2 Thief should be very strong, it's just that Thieves became crap after the 2nd job compared to the other classes.

    Take it as you will but it certainly doesn't seem like 2nd job is going to help Thieves.

    Well he told me that thief is a great class after 2nd job, same with a whole lot of Korean top players there. Unless he's saying different stuff to different audiences....

    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/684424?subject=ㅈㅈㅇ



    It's both in Korean but yeah. On Inven, he says in 1st job standards, Thief was very strong but 2nd job is where they became weak. On the youtube comments, he goes in depth on why Thief's 2nd job is weak compared to other classes. The reason why he thinks Thief's 2nd job is weaker than other classes is because bosses and dungeons after 2nd job favor the classes who has good AoE over Thieves that are only great at single target.

    On the same Inven post, 2 other people mirror the sentiment that Thieves are weak in KMS2 currently.

    I'm sorry to burst your bubble but the general consensus on Thieves in KMS2 doesn't seem so great.
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  • NightThiefNightThief
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    edited 6:41PM November 1, 2018
    Emjae wrote: »
    NightThief wrote: »
    Emjae wrote: »
    Yeah it didn't take me that long to figure out what people actually think. The forums are almost barren so there wasn't that much to read in the first place.

    From KMS2 forum and Inven, it seems like the general consensus for 2nd job (awakening) is pretty negative for Thieves.

    Ironcially 준게이, the Thief player from the NightThief's first video, says that Thief during the early KMS2 days was a "very strong" class and it's probably just that GMS2 players aren't use to the dps rotation yet. He also continues on saying that unless there was a balance change from the original KMS2 Thief 1st job, GMS2 Thief should be very strong, it's just that Thieves became crap after the 2nd job compared to the other classes.

    Take it as you will but it certainly doesn't seem like 2nd job is going to help Thieves.

    Well he told me that thief is a great class after 2nd job, same with a whole lot of Korean top players there. Unless he's saying different stuff to different audiences....

    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/684424?subject=ㅈㅈㅇ



    It's both in Korean but yeah. On Inven, he says in 1st job standards, Thief was very strong but 2nd job is where they became weak. On the youtube comments, he goes in depth on why Thief's 2nd job is weak compared to other classes. The reason why he thinks Thief's 2nd job is weaker than other classes is because bosses and dungeons after 2nd job favor the classes who has good AoE over Thieves that are only great at single target.

    On the same Inven post, 2 other people mirror the sentiment that Thieves are weak in KMS2 currently.

    I'm sorry to burst your bubble but the general consensus on Thieves in KMS2 doesn't seem so great.

    You just said that the guy claimed that thief becomes crap after awakening...

    Just to clarify:

    https://gyazo.com/9b7433aefe89d7ec18d5dceaa8ed5e7c


    Also to add, here's a post from Cho DM, a very good RB player that has also tried thief, keep in mind I only asked about the second skill tree:

    https://gyazo.com/d6a21c02f74ab51607d34b9c32558efa


    Lastly, the post you just gave had nothing to do with thief being bad pre or post awakening i'm confused???
  • EmjaeEmjae
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    edited 7:22PM November 1, 2018
    NightThief wrote: »

    You just said that the guy claimed that thief becomes crap after awakening...

    Just to clarify:

    https://gyazo.com/9b7433aefe89d7ec18d5dceaa8ed5e7c


    Also to add, here's a post from Cho DM, a very good RB player that has also tried thief, keep in mind I only asked about the second skill tree:

    https://gyazo.com/d6a21c02f74ab51607d34b9c32558efa

    It's hard to translate the exact meaning of what he said since there's no real direct translation of the term "주저앉아다." Perhaps the word "crap" wasn't the best translation. Maybe "failed" or "broke down" would have been a better translation. My bad.

    And he mirrored what I translated about his youtube comment. Thieves are weaker than other classes due to the lack of AoE abilities that are more useful in bosses and dungeons after 2nd job.

    So in other words, the meta doesn't fit Thief's strengths. IE: Thief is weaker than other classes.

    Honestly, I can list all the Inven posts about the viability on Thieves in KMS2 and they're 99% negative.

    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/684424
    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/682927
    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/682417
    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/682396
    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/681221
    http://www.inven.co.kr/board/maple2/4009/681049

    I can go on and on.

    The only positive post about Thief I saw was about their ability to hunt normal monster very very well. But the comment on that post points out that's the extent of their abilities and that he/she wishes Thief had an AoE skill.
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  • EmjaeEmjae
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    edited 5:13AM November 2, 2018
    NightThief wrote: »
    Lastly, the post you just gave had nothing to do with thief being bad pre or post awakening i'm confused???

    I must have missed the edit.

    This particular Inven post asks how GMS2 Thieves compare to KMS2. First comment says Thief in KMS2 currently is weak, the second one says it's hard to compare because GMS2 is too behind but Thieves in KMS2 currently are in low tier, and the last comment, which is by 준게이 says that Thief during the early KMS2 days was a "very strong" class and it's probably just that GMS2 players aren't use to the dps rotation yet. He also continues on saying that unless there was a balance change from the original KMS2 Thief 1st job, GMS2 Thief should be very strong, it's just that Thieves "failed", "broke down" or "got worse" (there's no direct translation to the word) after the 2nd job compared to the other classes.

    On this youtube comment, 준게이 goes into depth on why Thief is weaker after the 2nd job. He says "purely looking at boss damage, Thieves are still strong in that aspect. But after 2nd job rather than Thieves who excel at ST, bosses and epic dungeons favor classes that has great AoE and that's why Thieves are comparatively weak at the moment."

    It's rare that Koreans use the term that directly translates to "bad' (나쁘다) to describe how a class is. They usually use terms like "약하다" (weak) instead.
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  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    What I find perplexing is him saying thieves were strong in first job...are we playing different games? Or is getting uncapped from Fairfight actually going to skyrocket us past some classes? There has been so much theory crafting among thieves with builds that I highly doubt that the Koreans just have a super secret build that no one in GMS was able to figure out, that mysteriously gives them like 10k more dps.

  • NightThiefNightThief
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    edited 7:52AM November 2, 2018
    Emjae wrote: »
    NightThief wrote: »
    Lastly, the post you just gave had nothing to do with thief being bad pre or post awakening i'm confused???

    I must have missed the edit.

    This particular Inven post asks how GMS2 Thieves compare to KMS2. First comment says Thief in KMS2 currently is weak, the second one says it's hard to compare because GMS2 is too behind but Thieves in KMS2 currently are in low tier, and the last comment, which is by 준게이 says that Thief during the early KMS2 days was a "very strong" class and it's probably just that GMS2 players aren't use to the dps rotation yet. He also continues on saying that unless there was a balance change from the original KMS2 Thief 1st job, GMS2 Thief should be very strong, it's just that Thieves "failed", "broke down" or "got worse" (there's no direct translation to the word) after the 2nd job compared to the other classes.

    On this youtube comment, 준게이 goes into depth on why Thief is weaker after the 2nd job. He says "purely looking at boss damage, Thieves are still strong in that aspect. But after 2nd job rather than Thieves who excel at ST, bosses and epic dungeons favor classes that has great AoE and that's why Thieves are comparatively weak at the moment."

    It's rare that Koreans use the term that directly translates to "bad' (나쁘다) to describe how a class is. They usually use terms like "약하다" (weak) instead.

    Dude, a lot of the translations that you gave, you mistranslated, not saying that some of them didn't say thief isn't great but only a fraction of them did. First of all Jun Gay, which is the youtubers name never said that the class is weak, he stated that the class is powerful but the reason people say that is because the recent dungeons require multiple bosses, which is obviously thieves down fall, the aren't really great at multiple target DPS.

    There are multiple posts that contradict this claim(that thief isn't viable) and I've had a handful of Korean players tell me that thieves are in no way weak or bad! On the contrary they tell me that thief is a good class!

    Another point that I would like to add is a lot of the posts that you have given are a lot of people complaining about bugs after awakening, and apparently that applies to both skill trees. The second Skill tree is flawed because three is a bug when switching into battle mode because once you step into a certain distance towards the enemy you switch battle stances and that replaces haste. The second skill tree is powerful but lacks certain things that the first skill tree has such has the three stacks of cunning! The bugs will eventually be fixed and resolved, they are still fixing a lot of awakening abilities for balance!

    In no way did Jun Gay claim that "thieves are bad" other wise other classes such as Assassin would suck too right? Because they lack in the AoE appartment compared to lets say HG or even Berserker and RB which are easily the top 3 DPS as of current.

    Cho DM a top RB player had even stated to me that thief is a good class.

    The thing that people need to realize is firstly learn to play a class, just because a class has difficulty doesn't mean it cannot perform. I have been in multiple parties and have dpsed a handful of top dps classes and to be frank with everyone, saying thief is a very difficult class honestly depends on the person. I really don't find it a difficult class at all and am capable of getting S rank in multiple occasions, be it Lubelisk, Beyond, FD or even Balrog with top DPS.
    https://gyazo.com/1b2781fd454eb2b302f4dfd6e0b2c809
    Oh, and yes I've had faster clears than that!

    I admit that I've been kicked out of parties for being a thief, but i'm confident enough to out DPS plenty of people that have kicked me. Screw it, there is even a DPS knight that out performs many players out there currently in the Europe server!

    Really no point putting down a class, especially if you haven't played or even experienced its potential(i'm guessing you're not a thief main).
    Regardless of what anyone says, i'm still going to main it! It's the only class that I've actually played and enjoyed other than Soul Binder anyway, and I can't be bothered to play the Korean server with lag any longer, the UK is way to far to be able to handle that kind of lag!

    Anyway, do what you want, play whatever the heck you want, i'm team #Thief for life, I've played Shadower in MS1, Assassin in Blade and Soul, Ninja in Black Dessert and multiple other close range Assassination class and there no way that false comments will stop me from playing what I enjoy.

    TS, if you're reading this, play what you enjoy, thief does NOT suck, you just need to practice it.
  • CactrotCactrot
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    SentineIs wrote: »
    What I find perplexing is him saying thieves were strong in first job...are we playing different games? Or is getting uncapped from Fairfight actually going to skyrocket us past some classes? There has been so much theory crafting among thieves with builds that I highly doubt that the Koreans just have a super secret build that no one in GMS was able to figure out, that mysteriously gives them like 10k more dps.

    Fair Fight right now is reducing thief damage by ~21%. The rotation he uses is the one I thought should be the best DPS (minus sudden attack), and I'm pretty sure it's the one yoji used in the 4 minute FD kill party.
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    Cactrot wrote: »
    SentineIs wrote: »
    What I find perplexing is him saying thieves were strong in first job...are we playing different games? Or is getting uncapped from Fairfight actually going to skyrocket us past some classes? There has been so much theory crafting among thieves with builds that I highly doubt that the Koreans just have a super secret build that no one in GMS was able to figure out, that mysteriously gives them like 10k more dps.

    Fair Fight right now is reducing thief damage by ~21%. The rotation he uses is the one I thought should be the best DPS (minus sudden attack), and I'm pretty sure it's the one yoji used in the 4 minute FD kill party.

    I know its affecting thieves more, but its also affecting other classes. So if thieves are being reduced by ~21%, I'd suppose the other classes, bar other passive dependent classes, are being reduced like 10%. I'm just not sure how that small percentile difference jumps thieves from one of the worst performing to one of the best performing so that KR players think it was great during first job.

  • EmjaeEmjae
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    edited 4:24PM November 2, 2018
    NightThief wrote: »
    Dude, a lot of the translations that you gave, you mistranslated, not saying that some of them didn't say thief isn't great but only a fraction of them did. First of all Jun Gay, which is the youtubers name never said that the class is weak, he stated that the class is powerful but the reason people say that is because the recent dungeons require multiple bosses, which is obviously thieves down fall, the aren't really great at multiple target DPS.

    There are multiple posts that contradict this claim(that thief isn't viable) and I've had a handful of Korean players tell me that thieves are in no way weak or bad! On the contrary they tell me that thief is a good class!

    Another point that I would like to add is a lot of the posts that you have given are a lot of people complaining about bugs after awakening, and apparently that applies to both skill trees. The second Skill tree is flawed because three is a bug when switching into battle mode because once you step into a certain distance towards the enemy you switch battle stances and that replaces haste. The second skill tree is powerful but lacks certain things that the first skill tree has such has the three stacks of cunning! The bugs will eventually be fixed and resolved, they are still fixing a lot of awakening abilities for balance!

    In no way did Jun Gay claim that "thieves are bad" other wise other classes such as Assassin would suck too right? Because they lack in the AoE appartment compared to lets say HG or even Berserker and RB which are easily the top 3 DPS as of current.

    Cho DM a top RB player had even stated to me that thief is a good class.

    The thing that people need to realize is firstly learn to play a class, just because a class has difficulty doesn't mean it cannot perform. I have been in multiple parties and have dpsed a handful of top dps classes and to be frank with everyone, saying thief is a very difficult class honestly depends on the person. I really don't find it a difficult class at all and am capable of getting S rank in multiple occasions, be it Lubelisk, Beyond, FD or even Balrog with top DPS.
    https://gyazo.com/1b2781fd454eb2b302f4dfd6e0b2c809
    Oh, and yes I've had faster clears than that!

    I admit that I've been kicked out of parties for being a thief, but i'm confident enough to out DPS plenty of people that have kicked me. Screw it, there is even a DPS knight that out performs many players out there currently in the Europe server!

    Really no point putting down a class, especially if you haven't played or even experienced its potential(i'm guessing you're not a thief main).
    Regardless of what anyone says, i'm still going to main it! It's the only class that I've actually played and enjoyed other than Soul Binder anyway, and I can't be bothered to play the Korean server with lag any longer, the UK is way to far to be able to handle that kind of lag!

    Anyway, do what you want, play whatever the heck you want, i'm team #Thief for life, I've played Shadower in MS1, Assassin in Blade and Soul, Ninja in Black Dessert and multiple other close range Assassination class and there no way that false comments will stop me from playing what I enjoy.

    TS, if you're reading this, play what you enjoy, thief does NOT suck, you just need to practice it.


    Tell me which comments that I mistranslated. And link me any discussions where they talk about how good Thieves are in KMS2 because I certainly haven't seen any of them in Inven or the KMS2 forums. Also, I purposely left out the posts complaining about bugs specifically, but they also had complaints about the lack of damage anyway.

    Also, it doesn't matter even if Thieves, a melee class, have a very good ST damage when all the relevant content cater towards classes with good AoE and/or ranged. That still makes Thief weaker than classes with better AoE. That's the very definition and nature of the metagame. Now that doesn't mean that Thieves will be weak forever; Nexon can introduce content that require good ST damage or buff the Thief class directly.

    I don't understand this refusal to admitting that Thieves might have issues. If you actually care about the class, you should be actively trying to figure out problems and the solutions to it. For example, to mirror what I said a paragraph before, Thieves having great single target doesn't matter if the relevant content doesn't make a use of it. And we should be having discussions about those kinds of issues to make sure Thieves are relevant. This whole plugging your ears and yelling "we're fine" isn't doing the class any favor nor is it helping the Thief playerbase.

    Having said all that, Thief in GMS2 after the Fair Fight system fix might be a pretty strong class. Take that as you will.