Let's enjoy the final days! Check out what changes and events started this March here: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/56485/sunset-in-maple-world
MapleStory 2's servers will be officially closing on May 27th: http://maplestory2.nexon.net/en/news/article/56486/service-discontinuation

So once again... is casual botting acceptable?

Comments

  • BeariieBeariie
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,815
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    Game pretty much promotes auto play sadly.
    ElliebirdPineapple1124Rezi
  • MyouMyou
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 520
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    I mean, have you taken a look at this game? Afk music and afk fishing are big "content" parts, who cares about someone taping down their jump button if afk fishing isnt just endorsed but actively encouraged and can give you actually useful things rarely?
    ElliebirdCayzi
  • ShayarahlaShayarahla
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,170
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    xTarrant wrote: »
    People are always going to look for ways to break games. Report it and move on. If you don't like it don't do it.

    People are always looking for ways to create discussion around topics. Read it and move on, If you arent going to add anything insightful to the thread dont post.
  • SirNeckbeardSirNeckbeard
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
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    edited 6:38PM October 30, 2018
    While some people will surely differ in opinion based on principle alone, you honestly can't compare AFK trophies to botting mesos if you look at the outcomes. The two things are usually not the same form of automation.

    The AFK trophies brought the community together: the warps people had made to make an endless loop of climbing, or changing the gravity between 2 blocks to make jumping quicker were clever. The invitations to farm trophies at people's houses make going to bed fun, seeing hoards of people get a little progression for staying logged into the game. These trophies, with the creative implementations that have been designed in players' houses are just a little side bonus.

    Leaving a weight on your keyboard is very innocent. You can even farm mobs holding down the in-game macro key. The game will not let you farm for a certain amount of time while doing this, which has obvious reasons as to why. I'm pretty sure Nexon has implemented the restrictions based on what they deem acceptable. There would be similar restrictions to AFK trophy farming if they thought it was a problem.

    Where I draw the line is using any form of logic to make decisions for you or simply using blacklisted software to send any kind of artificial input, no matter how simple or complex. Reverse engineering the game to perform any task is also clearly unacceptable.

    Botting has had much higher implications, off the top of my head:
    - crashing the price of solvent, making farming nowhere near as rewarding as it used to be. down 3k/unit in a few days.
    - crashing the price of onyx, meaning those who made alts for those extra runs have little reason to do so anymore.
    - crashing the price of epics, meaning it's not even worthwhile to keep your fingers crossed for an epic on your alts, taking away from a lot of the excitement of the game.
    - makes the game P2W to an extent of enchanting, since you can literally pay to upgrade your gear.
    - having to carry bots in dungeons, because sometimes it's faster to just run it with them than queue all over again.
    - taking chests from players who actually need them for map stars.
    - spamming world chat, which has made many people disable it, meaning guilds can't promote as successfully and a world chat voucher has less value as the target audience isn't as large.

    Whereas most trophies can't even be done AFK, you have to actually play the game in a legitimate manner. I actually believe MS2 has done really well with the harmless automation they do allow through fishing/gathering/music/warp afk since it gives a feeling of progression each time you logon. And it works pretty well to bring people back to the game daily, especially those who may not have time to babysit their character all day.

    Putting the two in the same basket is kind of thoughtless.
    Pineapple1124CyntusXenociderOmegaRyuna
  • ElliebirdElliebird
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    False equivalency. Those afk trophies and other forms of legitimately damaging botting can't be compared.
    Pineapple1124CayziRyuna
  • SaranethSaraneth
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,995
    Posts: 129
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    xTarrant wrote: »
    People are always going to look for ways to break games. Report it and move on. If you don't like it don't do it.

    If you don't like botting don't do it?
    So if you do like it you saying you should bot?

    LOLOLOL
  • Nanachi_CCCPNanachi_CCCP
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,900
    Posts: 280
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    Elliebird wrote: »
    False equivalency. Those afk trophies and other forms of legitimately damaging botting can't be compared.
    That is fallacy fallacy and also substituting explanation for premise fallacy.

    Side note:
    You indeed can compare 2 things or 2 events even if they are not exactly the same because no 2 separate events are ever exactly the same.
    You totally can compare apples to oranges,oranges to lemons or oranges to sun.You can compare 9/11 to holocaust and you can compare holocaust to justin beiber concert or your birthday celebration.

    Main issue:
    From dictionary: botting: Automated gameplay

    So yes,using one of surely many definitions of botting both using software to automate gameplay and to put sock with some coins on D key to walk left is botting.Even without said definition provided both are tools to cheat,or to play away from keyboard for personal gain.And there is not to me any reason why we ought not to compare them or talk about them under same general theme. There is more to the issue because most people do not actually use coins but software called auto hot key so both are actually automated gameplay using software issue. One of key differences is that for ahk to work you do not need to target game window,therefore you can minimalize game,get achievements while playing other game or watch movie.


    Conclusion:

    I really like cold pressed apple juice,it does taste more naturally,generally no additional sugar is added and has that little bit of bitter after taste that i love very much. It is great christmas drink and It is how i replace alcohol. Sometimes i also drink ginger drinks to warm my cheeks up in cold nights.I also think that achievements like walk 1000km or play 24000hours are stupid and should be at very least account wide not character bound so I can not really blame anyone if he does put some coins on his cherry brown keys but that is just me.
  • ShayarahlaShayarahla
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,170
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    Leaving a weight on your keyboard is very innocent. You can even farm mobs holding down the in-game macro key. The game will not let you farm for a certain amount of time while doing this, which has obvious reasons as to why. I'm pretty sure Nexon has implemented the restrictions based on what they deem acceptable. There would be similar restrictions to AFK trophy farming if they thought it was a problem.

    so you think they have deemed it acceptable because they have not felt the need to implement a mechanic to stop movement after a certain amount of time? maybe they just had more hope in their playerbase to not stoop so low

    and from our own bible which we all agreed to read and abide to:
    "Using macros, auto-looting or robot play, or any other behavior that allows you (or any character you are controlling) to automatically function or effect any action in a game with or without your presence."

    hmm

    the afkable functions in ms2 are impossible to utilise without the merits or coupons gained from various things ingame. thus earning you the right to make that progress... you haven't earned the right to exploit flawed mechanics in the game for cheap overnight progress :/

    this distinct line you draw between 3rd party software & its adolescent stage of wedging objects between your keys is laughable tbh miss me with that "bringing people together!!!! while they are away from their keyboards!!!!" crap lol
  • GrizzybehrGrizzybehr
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,115
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    You all really have that much time on your hands to get butthurt over a stack of quarters on the W key? Wow, must be nice. It’s called picking your battles. Find something that matters to waste your time complaining about.
    Pineapple1124ElliebirdSirNeckbeard
  • SirNeckbeardSirNeckbeard
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 600
    Posts: 7
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    edited 6:49AM October 31, 2018
    Shayarahla wrote: »
    so you think they have deemed it acceptable because they have not felt the need to implement a mechanic to stop movement after a certain amount of time? maybe they just had more hope in their playerbase to not stoop so low

    Yeah, let's make all objects and classes local. The playerbase won't stoop so low right? The game was already out in Korea for years. If they saw this as a violation then they would do something about it. In questionable cases like this, the devs certainly do have a responsibility to implement a restriction if there is clearly confusion and a divide in the community on whether it is acceptable or not. The playerbase isn't expected to moderate themselves in every situation.

    Shayarahla wrote: »
    and from our own bible which we all agreed to read and abide to:
    "Using macros, auto-looting or robot play, or any other behavior that allows you (or any character you are controlling) to automatically function or effect any action in a game with or without your presence."

    If you take these definitions extremely literally as you have to fit your narrative, then using your pet to auto-loot is violating the ToS, since it's literally called auto-loot. Using the in-game macros is also cheating! There is a reason why these definitions are so loosely described: it's to explain to the player that they at any time have the right to suspend your account for any breach that they deem is in violation of their terms. Based on what you said from the rules, any of us who have had a pet (damn guys, stop hacking with auto-pots) or used the in-game macros can technically be banned. It's simply not realistic. That's why the definitions are so loose.

    I already stated that using blacklisted software to achieve a similar goal is not fair, as they can't just pick and choose cases how people use this software that can be programmed to do more sinister things (i.e. botting mesos and ruining the economy) should be handled.

    Shayarahla wrote: »
    the afkable functions in ms2 are impossible to utilise without the merits or coupons gained from various things ingame. thus earning you the right to make that progress... you haven't earned the right to exploit flawed mechanics in the game for cheap overnight progress :/

    It doesn't seem like exploiting the mechanics to me, it definitely seems like a design choice. There are limitations on so many things in the game -- again the game has been out for years, if it was an issue they would hotfix it or at least announce a warning. I can think of an easy-fix already: don't let the player repeatedly travel through the same warp portal continuously. As if the devs are that lazy and incompetent. Nobody is saying "sure, make your own fishing bot, it's the same thing as buying a voucher in the store".

    Shayarahla wrote: »
    this distinct line you draw between 3rd party software & its adolescent stage of wedging objects between your keys is laughable tbh miss me with that "bringing people together!!!! while they are away from their keyboards!!!!" crap lol

    Ok, but you don't actually provide any counter argument to that other than saying it's "crap". It actually does bring people together, whether you have experienced it yourself or not. People are still hanging out in those houses and talking before and afterwards. I only went to Mouse House for AFK trophies, but his parkour challenge peaked my interest and I ended up talking to him about it on Discord. Just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it can't be experienced by others.

    It's actually laughable that you can't distinguish the consequences of leaving a weight on your keyboard to farm a few AFK trophies and using a program that can iterate over a sequence of inputs based on logic to bypass certain restrictions e.g. farming in the same area for over the limitation.

    Ever alt-tabbed in Tria to chat in Discord or send an email? You were AFK farming trophies by restricting the input from your keyboard to another window. You're only a legit player if you sat there staring at your MS2 window for 10 hours in Tria. I'll keep wedging my screwdriver between my jump key and you do you bud.
    ElliebirdCarisei
  • SherriSherri
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 8,580
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    Botting is botting, doesn't matter if you bot for trophies or not.
    Again, just play the game, people. Gosh.
    SyrusMarufujiVerdantMeso_ManTseneRezi
  • HeimerdingerHeimerdinger
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,870
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    only nexon sanctioned botting via vouchers is acceptable

    Rezi
  • SyrusMarufujiSyrusMarufuji
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,395
    Posts: 202
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    edited 9:26PM November 2, 2018
    I think there is code that is possible to only tick calculations when you are tabbed into the window. So alt tabbing wouldnt constitute abusing their trophies considering they could have probably put something like that in.
  • ShayarahlaShayarahla
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,170
    Posts: 31
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    edited 6:10AM November 3, 2018
    Shayarahla wrote: »
    so you think they have deemed it acceptable because they have not felt the need to implement a mechanic to stop movement after a certain amount of time? maybe they just had more hope in their playerbase to not stoop so low

    Yeah, let's make all objects and classes local. The playerbase won't stoop so low right? The game was already out in Korea for years. If they saw this as a violation then they would do something about it. In questionable cases like this, the devs certainly do have a responsibility to implement a restriction if there is clearly confusion and a divide in the community on whether it is acceptable or not. The playerbase isn't expected to moderate themselves in every situation.

    Shayarahla wrote: »
    and from our own bible which we all agreed to read and abide to:
    "Using macros, auto-looting or robot play, or any other behavior that allows you (or any character you are controlling) to automatically function or effect any action in a game with or without your presence."

    If you take these definitions extremely literally as you have to fit your narrative, then using your pet to auto-loot is violating the ToS, since it's literally called auto-loot. Using the in-game macros is also cheating! There is a reason why these definitions are so loosely described: it's to explain to the player that they at any time have the right to suspend your account for any breach that they deem is in violation of their terms. Based on what you said from the rules, any of us who have had a pet (damn guys, stop hacking with auto-pots) or used the in-game macros can technically be banned. It's simply not realistic. That's why the definitions are so loose.

    I already stated that using blacklisted software to achieve a similar goal is not fair, as they can't just pick and choose cases how people use this software that can be programmed to do more sinister things (i.e. botting mesos and ruining the economy) should be handled.

    Shayarahla wrote: »
    the afkable functions in ms2 are impossible to utilise without the merits or coupons gained from various things ingame. thus earning you the right to make that progress... you haven't earned the right to exploit flawed mechanics in the game for cheap overnight progress :/

    It doesn't seem like exploiting the mechanics to me, it definitely seems like a design choice. There are limitations on so many things in the game -- again the game has been out for years, if it was an issue they would hotfix it or at least announce a warning. I can think of an easy-fix already: don't let the player repeatedly travel through the same warp portal continuously. As if the devs are that lazy and incompetent. Nobody is saying "sure, make your own fishing bot, it's the same thing as buying a voucher in the store".

    Shayarahla wrote: »
    this distinct line you draw between 3rd party software & its adolescent stage of wedging objects between your keys is laughable tbh miss me with that "bringing people together!!!! while they are away from their keyboards!!!!" crap lol

    Ok, but you don't actually provide any counter argument to that other than saying it's "crap". It actually does bring people together, whether you have experienced it yourself or not. People are still hanging out in those houses and talking before and afterwards. I only went to Mouse House for AFK trophies, but his parkour challenge peaked my interest and I ended up talking to him about it on Discord. Just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it can't be experienced by others.

    It's actually laughable that you can't distinguish the consequences of leaving a weight on your keyboard to farm a few AFK trophies and using a program that can iterate over a sequence of inputs based on logic to bypass certain restrictions e.g. farming in the same area for over the limitation.

    Ever alt-tabbed in Tria to chat in Discord or send an email? You were AFK farming trophies by restricting the input from your keyboard to another window. You're only a legit player if you sat there staring at your MS2 window for 10 hours in Tria. I'll keep wedging my screwdriver between my jump key and you do you bud.

    The difference between every point you tried to make regarding what is botting is, is that you literally manipulate your keyboard/input to mimic actual player input. Pet auto loot? A game feature that doesn’t require or reward keyboard manipulation through 3rd party means. Afking in a town for a trophy? Again, no keyboard input used to mimic human input, thus is not botting. The ToS, by definition, doesn’t rule these as botting... unlike your act of using 3rd party means while abusing flawed mechanics, which is!
  • XenociderOmegaXenociderOmega
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    edited 8:19AM November 3, 2018
    There is no such thing as casual botting. Either its botting or not there is no middle ground here.
    SherriGreta
  • SherriSherri
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    Am I the only one who thinks this isn't getting as much attention as it should?
    ShayarahlaTsene
  • ReziRezi
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    That depends. Are you macroing with a non-Nexon program to assist you? In that case, it's against the rules. But if you put a rock on your macro key, who cares. That double standard.

    Other games ban soft macroing like that, but unfortunately this game is designed for it. Still, bots are a no no - unless Nexon caves in and gives us an in-game bot alternative, which I wouldn't put past them as long as it was through cash.
  • ShayarahlaShayarahla
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,170
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    i guess nexon promotes botting, tos means nothing guys