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We need more specific guidelines around UGC.

PorlamiaPorlamia
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in Suggestions and Feedback
I'm posting this thread as I've noticed a concern about the rules by speaking to a number of players in the #ugc-workshop channel on the official Discord.

There is a high demand for the rules for explicit content to be written out in a more detailed manner with more examples of what is right and wrong.

A cloud of confusion surrounds the topic of how much skin can be shown on a UGC creation. It is obvious that the no-no zones should be covered but the community would like to know:

How much should be covered to make it okay? At which point is it NOT okay? Do the same guidelines translate between males and females or is there a gender bias?

I feel like this is very important for those who want to follow the rules yet make the UGC that they want to make. Since official cosmetics have made it seem okay to make content like the "Cute Frilled Bikini (F)" but will remove similar bottoms that are UGC. While I won't get into the discussion of whether or not undergarments of any gender are seen as sexually explicit, I can understand why they would be considered as such.

The rules for UGC heavily cover the copyrighted claims but barely touch upon other guidelines they wish to set regarding custom creations. They are spread out through three pages: here, here, and here.

The support website and the terms of service are the only pages that mentions a rule against explicit content but does not specify what is deemed acceptable and what is deemed too far.

TL;DR: We just want to know how much of the model "bits" should be covered to make the UGC deemed as acceptable and will not be removed.

A detailed example of what is and what is not acceptable is what we request. The copyright rules are fine but those were the only guidelines given. All guidelines should be stated in one to two places maximum and it should be easily accessible to the community.
LucidCypherGotexKitaiSuruJozaridontreallyknowmanLord_GreypeacheryPoofcatMathyFeyCarbonCoaland 1 other.
  1. Do you believe that Nexon needs to improve their guidelines regarding UGC?38 votes
    1. Yes.
       92% (35 votes)
    2. No.
       8% (3 votes)

Comments

  • BizuBizu
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    edited 1:07PM October 23, 2018
    I want clear guidelines on what is and is not okay in UGC because it helps everyone. By providing the moderation staff with a clear guideline, there will be a much consistent ruling on UGC. There will be less questions of what is and is not okay from your own employees, and it removes cultural biases. One employee may think boy-shorts are A-OKAY but another might not.

    It creates transparency with the company to the audience and allows your artists to know what to make, what to expect, and what is alright. It helps parents know what content should be expected in the UGC store, and it helps consumers know what to report. No one loses by you setting a clear, definitive boundary.

    It creates a clear boundary for players to follow, since your own game riddled with sexual content:
    QWQ6mSU.png zkgEwtJ.png ppeEVRs.png NVJgmuG.png
    Please note, I do not have a problem with these NPCs or outfits, but am using them solely as an example of Nexon's unclear boundaries.

    7kKePhy.png
    The outfit on the left was taken down, while the outfit on the right is in Nexon's shop, being sold for NX. Why is the one on the right okay and the one on the left is not?

    This is why we cant clear, concise guidelines. give us a template that highlights what needs to be covered. Show us on an image the examples of what you do want to see, and what you do not want to see. Help us, Nexon because we're also helping you make money. We are providing yoru game with content, so help us follow your rules.
    PorlamiaMathyFeyLucidCypherGotexidontreallyknowmanEekvolemLord_GreypeacheryCarbonCoalSyrusMarufujiand 5 others.
  • DigitalcatDigitalcat
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    The more transparency and guidelines there are, the better it will be for everyone who makes UGC content, I imagine nothing would be worse then spending hours on a creation, for it then to be removed as it happens to be against the rules, or deemed inappropriate of which you don't even know what it went against as they are not listed.

    Good idea lad.
    PorlamiaGotexidontreallyknowmanJimbos
  • GotexGotex
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    Yeah with the rules written how they are some things are clear but a lot is hit or miss. It would be amazing to have a clear set or rules so people aren't rolling a dice with their designs after hours of working on them. Feels worse and unfair when some stuff is taken down but something showing more is a big hit selling a lot. I hope they take this topic into consideration and try to improve their rules!
    PorlamiaJimbos
  • NeedyNeedy
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    TFziNY8.png
    nexon at the very least give us something like this so people can complain that they followed the guidelines instead of complaining that the guidelines are too vague
    PorlamiapeacheryBizuPoofcatLucidCypheridontreallyknowman
  • peacherypeachery
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    i also wonder if there are any specific styles of clothing that are considered "suggestive." right now the terms are way too broad.

    are fishnets and large busts too risque, despite being prominent on many female NPCs? what kinds of necklines are appropriate on male and female models? how much stomach/thigh can be shown before it becomes inappropriate? how do the guidelines see flat chests? are male nipples allowed? is lingerie-style clothing a no-go?

    we can run around in-game with "naked" avatars that are essentially half-naked without anyone batting an eye. do garterbelts cross a line? what about generic bras/underpants/speedos/swimwear/other undergarments?

    these are the kinds of things people would like to know before sitting down to create UGC for hours on end only to have their hard work removed and customers left with a smaller wardrobe.
  • BizuBizu
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    peachery wrote: »
    these are the kinds of things people would like to know before sitting down to create UGC for hours on end only to have their hard work removed and customers left with a smaller wardrobe.

    Not just removed, but penalized as well. Each time you mess up, this resets to 3 days, without giving you any warning or time to correct in between your first and second offense.

    dSRJKAc.png
    peacheryJimbosidontreallyknowman
  • EizelEizel
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    edited 4:55PM October 23, 2018
    Yes, there's the topic of explicit content. But there's also the major problem of copyright content or just not following this following rules in general.

    - You may not use logos or trademarks belonging to someone else in your work.
    - Do not upload or share the designs or logos of others – even if you have modified the design or logo
    - You may not describe or tag your UGC with words or language that identifies it as a specific character, trademark, or brand name.

    I keep seeing Gucci, Supreme, Nike.
    I keep seeing Naruto, One Piece, Danganronpa.
    I keep seeing copy pasted works from online, which anyone can just find and copy. However, copying from online for personal use and selling are completely different.

    The Decorations tab in the design shop is 90% copy paste of other peoples work and is not the actual work of the person selling it. And not only is it copy-pastes of peoples work, but a large majority of it is also sexual content including Hen*** and other forms of sexual content, with the lightest of covering at times. However, these items remain up after days to weeks, and nothing is done, a player really shouldn't have to make a ticket to get an item removed, yes there may be lots of reports, but that's only because action isn't being taken on the large majority of the items on the market.

    I would link some of the items as examples, but this comment would be taken down by the VFM squad, as they actually moderate this forum, unlike how Nexon actually moderates the UGC postings to the same effectivity or quality that VFM moderates the forums.

    I have made several lengthy reports through tickets, but I don't think it should take a 3 page essay to take down a handful of items, as the report tool seems to be bugged, since there are items I reported 3 weeks ago, which I know break the current rules, but are not taken down yet, and I can't even see the items anymore, because their "you will not be able to see this item for 1 day" is actually permanent, and not temporary.

    The response time to take down items is completely disgusting. An example would be in the NA East server, there is a user by the name of TooBe, this user posted up a ripped copy of a person work from the Korean server. They made over 200k Merets, yes over 200 000 Merets, that's over 2 thousand dollars in US money. It took Nexon over 3 weeks to take down the item way after the account had made that much money. The creator of the item whom is on the server, gets 0 compensation. Absolutely 0, from a stolen work which made tens of thousands of Merets, they made 0 from it. And the account isn't even banned as it's still visible in the rankings. Even though the account Ripped content, and it posted to sell a ripped design.

    3 Weeks, 200k Merets, the time taken was too long, and a bunch of Merets just disappear?

    And guess what. If you've reached the 200k, you get the blue Meret badge, and even if your item is removed, you get to keep the badge, which continues to promote your work EVEN THOUGH the items are against the violations.

    In the following image, on the Left, and item that got taken down yesterday after I made a very lengthy ticket and on the right an item that is still up and a picture that I took several minutes ago. The item on the left took a whole week to be taken down, when it's clearly a death notebook, from the anime death note, like go figure! An item that breaks guidelines isn't taken down if people report it, but if a person writes a 2-page essay it is taken down.

    unknown.png

    And to use the previous picture as an example. So they took it down because it was copyright from the anime, but they also took down this item as well which was made by the same player, as it is tagged naruto, Akatsuki, and it is clearly from Naruto, and it is the robes of an Akatsuki member.

    unknown.pngSo they decide to take down a single Akatsuki item after a report, but what about the other 50+ Akatsuki items that are still up? What about the bunch of items tagged, Gucci, Supreme, Nike, Naruto, Danganronpa, 2b, Nier (nier automata), link, Zelda, kingdom hearts and the list goes on. They seriously don't care about the guidelines put up, but just taking down one item, because a person complained about just the one while reporting 50 others that don't get taken down even though exactly the same. It's honestly ridiculous.

If they don't actually bother taking down these designs, they will be hit by lawsuits, from companies, as they're currently going against copyright and trademark laws.
    PorlamiaJimbosidontreallyknowmanDragonicWolf
  • NavokiNavoki
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    Honestly I think its clear enough to a point where one should be able to create work and be fine.

    The answers are there and it makes me wonder if this question is more asking "What can we get away with?"

    In the Terms of Service it states
    2. You may not upload or share any content that is offensive, suggestive, harassing, abusive, degrading, hateful, political, religious, or violent.

    Meaning while Nexon or Maple Story may be able to make anything even slightly suggestive, you may not.
    So a Bikini for example, while some may consider this as acceptable on a beach or something in real life, Maple World is not real life and is filled with Towns/Cities and other locations that people would be wearing said outfits. With so many people already exploiting/abusing certain things for UGC, a lot of people would wear such Bikinis for purposes that would be considered indecent or inappropriate. Since people can't behave themselves its not surprising that this would be a rule.

    As for Copyrighted material your sources give a good example on that too. here

    One can clearly see that the Outfit at the bottom is from My Hero Academia. The name however is listed as "Training Sweatshirt and Training Sweatpants" and the design itself is user created, in other words it wasn't copy an pasted. The artist drew this image themselves and the design itself i would think is not directly copyrighted unlike a company logo.

    So the same should apply to any Naruto or Bleach creation. Hollow Masks, Soul Reaper Robes, or Narutos Outfit. As long as the Maple design was created solely by the artist and not copy/pasted in any way or form, and is named something that doesn't link it to its inspired source, then its okay.

    Then back to your question
    We just want to know how much of the model "bits" should be covered to make the UGC deemed as acceptable and will not be removed.

    They gave specific templates to create your own content. In these templates I'm sure they were created in a way for you to use them as they were intended. Out of the ones provided I'm pretty sure there are no templates specifically designed to be able to create Bikinis, underwear, shirts with cleavage etc. So anything other than what was intended with these could be labeled as suggestive in any matter and is subject to removal.

    After reading all this keep in mind that i personally don't care what someone puts in the UGC store so long as its not copyrighted and being sold for ones personal gain, or something lewd and indecent.

    Kids play this game too, so while its neat to make something cute or sexy for your maple person, keep it modest please. Use common sense when making something. If you still have things that get removed then it probably means you need to update your own views.
    PorlamiaJimbos
  • PorlamiaPorlamia
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    I want to point out that this is more focused around explicit content. The rules are very clear regarding copyrighted content and those aren't the concern here. There is another thread discussing the way that rule is handled here.

    This is about the vagueness of the rules regarding explicit content. Please keep that in mind.

    I don't want to silence anyone regarding it but I don't want to get off topic here either.

    @Navoki

    What you say is very much valid. I understand that we are not allowed to create explicit content but certain content (like BIZU made an example of) is being considered explicit when some of us do not think so.

    We want an example of NEXON's morals regarding this grey area as there is no clear specifications for it. I think it'd just be nice to receive a statement just to make clear how much of the model's skin is allowed to show before it becomes valid to be removed. Even if it was obvious all along.

    It wouldn't hurt if they did or did not do this for us. But we're requesting that they do. Thank you for your input though. It does make a lot of sense.

    Jimbos
  • BellocanCitizenBellocanCitizen
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    Nexon cannot improve guidelines and it should stay that way because of actual law overgoverning maples UGC. They do not want to break the law and it is better this way to protect their users. If you clearly read ugc and eula/tos https://www.nexon.com/main/en/legal/tou , http://www.nexon.net/en/legal/user-generated-content-policy/ . You give up the right to any content you created and uploaded on UGC and you are not allowed to use any third party copyrighted/trademarked or derivative works, (Which most people are doing). And governing laws overrule any nexon UGC/EULA on which country the server is located .Nexon must abide by those rules over theirs or face legal action and litigation takes lots of money and can potentially leave users vulnerable. So nexon should first protect themselves to protect us. Overall it is a very complex process and the world of laws/politics has always been a greedy one for money.
    Porlamia
  • PorlamiaPorlamia
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    @BellocanCitizen

    Nexon CAN improve their guidelines but they are free to choose not to. There is nothing that can not be improved.

    I've read the Terms of Use and I understand what the policies are. However, what you referenced has little to nothing to do with what we're discussing. Yes, they own the content we create as soon as we place it upon their servers. Yes, they reserve the right to remove any content they wish without notice.

    As a community, some of us want some transparency, some of us want to know what we can get away with, some of us don't care.

    If what you say is true about them not being able to improve their guidelines, I would rather hear it from themselves in a statement regarding this issue.
  • BellocanCitizenBellocanCitizen
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    edited 2:37AM October 24, 2018
    Likely they will tell you they change it and just word it different so you can be happy, legally it is really nice right now to protect its users and the company, changing anything can be difficult as I can sue for an easy 15k if they step beyond the boundary of law as well as more professional people, and trust me the litigation department on nexon is huge lol.

    So far what I do know is that they remove political things and religious things because those things are biased cause they intrude to other countries that do not have\forbid\limit those things. Also you cant write profanity and adultery but I see a lot of people doing it. and the rules state you cannot use third party works so that leaves pretty much everything but I still see it. The only thing I actually saw them remove is political/religious things, Extremely happy I saw that.
    Porlamia
  • PorlamiaPorlamia
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    @BellocanCitizen

    I'm not asking them to step outside of the law. I'm asking them to *explain* the law in a manner that more people can understand. Especially since young people play this game. Not everyone will understand it to the fullest.

    As far as the offensive, political, religious, clearly explicit items, I can fully agree with you.
  • BizuBizu
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    NArvceR.png

    Give us something like this, where Red needs to be covered, and blue is up to moderator discretion.
    idontreallyknowman
  • PorlamiaPorlamia
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    Thank you to everyone for your feedback.

    The diagram that BIZU has displayed above would be a good example for us to be given.
  • CLCCLC
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    edited 3:11AM October 26, 2018
    Bizu wrote: »
    7kKePhy.png
    The outfit on the left was taken down, while the outfit on the right is in Nexon's shop, being sold for NX. Why is the one on the right okay and the one on the left is not?

    The one on the left is much more revealing.
    -Buttons are stretched out.
    -Can see the body where the buttons are stretched out
    -Shows more cleavage
    -A lot more emphasis on the body.

    The one on the right is just an over sized shirt.
    -Can see the bra
    -Can see the shoulders

    They actually are quite different when it comes to being over sexual.
    Pikangie
  • JimbosJimbos
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    They should really just take a backseat and let us make whatever we want as long as it's not copyrighted/illegal or explicit. The SJW audience is extremely small here.
    raphaelgoulart
  • CarbonCoalCarbonCoal
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    I agree that the guidelines should be more clear so that people who are trying to follow the UGC guidelines don't get their items removed.
    Pikangie
  • idontreallyknowmanidontreallyknowman
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    CLC wrote: »
    Bizu wrote: »
    7kKePhy.png
    The outfit on the left was taken down, while the outfit on the right is in Nexon's shop, being sold for NX. Why is the one on the right okay and the one on the left is not?

    The one on the left is much more revealing.
    -Buttons are stretched out.
    -Can see the body where the buttons are stretched out
    -Shows more cleavage
    -A lot more emphasis on the body.

    The one on the right is just an over sized shirt.
    -Can see the bra
    -Can see the shoulders

    They actually are quite different when it comes to being over sexual.

    Oh yeah less than a pinch of her belly skin is showing that means the left is 100% more sexual clearly.
    smdh.
    SyrusMarufuji
  • CLCCLC
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    Oh yeah less than a pinch of her belly skin is showing that means the left is 100% more sexual clearly.
    smdh.

    Let me ask you this. Which would be acceptable in public?

    I have never seen the left in public apart from being in a lingerie store. The one on the right you can find people wearing it, mostly with a less revealing style.