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Skill damage calculations

MillnMilln
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edited 6:13AM October 16, 2018 in Thief
One of those "Oh, so that's how it works." bits.

It's obvious once you realize it, but no one talks about it and some people need to be told why their damage number seems low and inconsistent.

Thief skills calculate damage off of both of your weapons, but separately. You have skills that attack with a singular weapon. The percentage modifier is per hit, yet also per weapon for the skills that use it, so it's kind of halved.


Daggers

Once you get to level 50 you can make it really obvious by equipping a purple and some random trash dagger you pick up from a monster drop. You'll swing for big damage, and then little damage.

Basic attack - Primary, Off-hand, Primary, Off-hand
Double Slash - Primary Hand dagger, then Off-Hand dagger.

Poison Edge is interesting and actually deals six hits across five attacks- Off-Hand, Primary Hand, then the third strike is two hits using the median damage between the two daggers, then both hand damage, both hand damage. This means that if you have a good dagger and a level 1 dagger you will swing for a low number on the attack that uses that hand, then on the third attack, it will take the middle spot and apply a damage range to it. However, this is still off of a Poison Damage calculation and might not necessarily be a dagger attack. More on that below.

For example, if you swing for, let's say 200-ish on your left hand and 4k-ish on your Right, the third strike of Poison Edge will hit twice for 2.3k-ish.

Same thing with Vicious Cuts. It takes each hand separately and calculates the damage *per dagger*

This is why there appears to be discrepancies between Percentage damage ranges. The calculation is correct; It's just applying the formula to the one hand you're striking with. Attacks that "use both hands" such as Mind Stealer/Breaker, Blade Dance and Somersault Kick show those numbers because it takes both weapons into account. The last two hits of Poison Edge do this, too.


So where does that put Poison Vial and Surprise Attack?

Surprise attack clearly calculates its damage with both hands, but something seems off about the poison explosion, right? This is actually correct, too.

"Poison Damage" is its own calculation, away from your physical attack.
Chuck a level 10 Poison vial and average the damage. Stick that into a percentage equation and find out what your average integer is sixty-two percent of. This is your Poison Damage. Multiply that by 526% for level 10 Surprise attack. It should be a very similar number for when you pop Surprise. Poison Damage doesn't truly care what is in your off-hand, by the way. It takes your right handed damage, but allows for bonuses from your left hand to apply.



What does this mean? Well that's a discussion for when it's not 5am.
HybristicSDSDSDSDVanzRoyRickShawMoQa_BianQalillucarioTrafiVendalEcchiOtakuTM

Comments

  • LaggiingLaggiing
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    Thanks for doing these tests so my lazy ass doesn’t have to
    Trafi
  • MillnMilln
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    edited 10:38AM October 11, 2018
    Laggiing wrote: »
    Thanks for doing these tests so my lazy ass doesn’t have to

    I'm here to provide a service.
    LeilafiTrafi
  • lillucariolillucario
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    edited 10:54AM October 11, 2018
    Is it just me or is the attack buff from Haste off currently. It says it takes x% from physical attack but doesn't fully give it. 10% at level 3 is only giving me 30 more attack when i have 3k currently. So I'm not sure where it's taking the 10% from.

    EDIT: So I equipped some low level daggers that dropped my attack to about 440, used level 3 haste and it still gave me 30 attack. So I really don't know what it's basing it off of.
  • MillnMilln
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    edited 11:03AM October 11, 2018
    Are you using Poison Edge, Double Slash, or something else?

    If it's Poison Edge, my current belief is the Poison Damage calculation doesn't take into account your full physical attack score and Poison Edge is 100% Poison Damage and then you have per dagger calcs to worry about.

    Test it with Mind Breaker level 10. It's the cleanest skill. Does exactly 200% damage and factors both hands. Remember that damage range is large.
  • SDSDSDSDSDSDSDSD
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    Thanks for doing this work.
  • lillucariolillucario
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    edited 11:21AM October 11, 2018
    Milln wrote: »
    Are you using Poison Edge, Double Slash, or something else?

    If it's Poison Edge, my current belief is the Poison Damage calculation doesn't take into account your full physical attack score and Poison Edge is 100% Poison Damage and then you have per dagger calcs to worry about.

    Test it with Mind Breaker level 10. It's the cleanest skill. Does exactly 200% damage and factors both hands. Remember that damage range is large.

    Hmm so it still off of skill damage too. Thought I was going crazy thinking it was only affecting our base attack.
  • VanzVanz
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    Lillucario - Thank you for the thorough testing and info.

    Right now i'm noticing the Poison Edge doesn't consistently apply stacks when used on a boss. Have you noticed this at all?
    Poison Vial will automatically note the debuff under Boss HP bar and start the timer
    Poison Edge will randomly register the hit with an associated debuff - again random for stacks
    (So even if i hit a boss with 4 hits from Poison Edge - maybe only 1 stack registers for poison)

    I've noticed if you activate cunning with the skill - it WILL register every hit done thereafter (in the duration of cunning) with Poison Edge.

    As this makes it hard to stack up poison - it's hard to get full 5 stacks on mob to execute with Surprise Attack and then follow with the ramping up of stacks right after.

    Please let me know if i'm misunderstanding how the skill should work or if you're getting the same results.
    Also looking forward to reading more about your findings with Dagger-Dmg calculations and their interactions with skills.
  • MillnMilln
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    edited 10:11AM October 12, 2018
    Vanz wrote: »
    Lillucario - Thank you for the thorough testing and info.
    Hmm... hahaha

    Vanz,

    It's a little unclear what the inquiry is, so i'll just explain the whole thing.
    Poison Edge, by itself and unempowered, will never poison the enemy with a damage over time. I wish it did. It'd be sick if it applied one stack on a crit or something, right? That would even be in flavor!

    Poison Edge EX, the move when it is empowered with Cunning will always poison the enemy every time you hit them, as long you hit them, for a maximum of five stacks. If you Miss one of the slices or it's perfect guarded (y'know, this one i'm not actually sure of), it won't poison.

    There *used* to be a bug in the Closed Betas where Poison Edge EX would not properly stack poisons, but it was fixed for release and now we do not encounter it.

    Weekend is coming up. I'll be able to test more things and also field more questions from the general populace if you guys have any. The more you guys ask, the more we all learn: If I already know, I can teach. If I don't know, it leads to research.
  • VanzVanz
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    edited 10:03AM October 12, 2018
    Milln wrote: »
    Vanz wrote: »
    Lillucario - Thank you for the thorough testing and info.
    Hmm... hahaha

    Vanz,

    Well then... this is awkward ---- hahaha indeed.
    Thanks Milln.
    I should've known better - I've seen you on other threads.

    I appreciate the clarification on the skills as it was indeed my misunderstanding. I do wish those tooltips were clearer in their functions, percentages and how they manifest in gameplay.
    From other threads - i'm truly curious to see your skill tree -- but it kind of takes the fun out of building my own.. (STILL CURIOUS OF YOURS).
    Will have to assess the percentages again to determine if elemental poison focus with Poison Edge would be better (since it doesn't have poison stacks) over seeing if investing in Somersault, Balkan Edge, Revenge (with the addition of skill point availability now that the cap is 60) is worth it.

    I'm sure you have these thoughts as well. Unless you're that far ahead and have already calculated which option works out best - curious about that too :)

  • MillnMilln
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    edited 11:40AM October 12, 2018
    I wish they were clearer, too, but that goes for any MMORPG. They're never as clear as they want to be. They always keep the formulas hidden. Like, in FF14, all we got was some flavor text and a "potency" number that required the players to math out on their own to figure out what that even meant. Here, we at least get precise percentages of the damage so we know what to expect, even if the real formula is elusive.

    I'll share my build when i'm home, but I will say both that no one will like it and i'm constantly changing it around as well as it being dependent on equipment bonuses. I agree with you that finding your own skill build that excels is a lot of fun! I run 0 points in Vicious Cuts(Balkan/Vulcan Edge). Even so, I'm confident in it and was able to pull higher Damage per minute at the same level 50 gearscore than That Other Topic said I should have been able to. For being far ahead and calculating which option works best, eh, I dunno. I'm not that cool. I do, however; believe i'm onto something with Poisons. Made top 10 Thieves on NA East for Season 1 in Dark Descent with it so there's definitely something functional here. I'm Accel.

    Edit: Forgot about the Skill Calc. Here's my build:
    https://arrowvulcan.github.io/MS2-Skill-Calculator/skills.html#9-10-10-0-10-9-0-0-2-2-3-0-1-0-1-2-0-2-1-0-8-0-0-0-6
    Again, it's constantly changing. The only thing that is constant is the left column. That stays where it is. All of the non-poison points are variable.
  • AlthyarionAlthyarion
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    This is an amazing forum post. I am learning a lot, there doesn't seem to be much out there on thieves. This will help my Poison build.
    What would you suggest the Luk/Dex ratio be or is there another stat I should focus on? I am pretty much allocating all 15 luk and 1 dex
    I have two builds, I use Poison for bosses and my multi-attacker build any suggestions on that build? It has 1 Skill Point in Poison vial
  • LaggiingLaggiing
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    edited 4:47PM October 13, 2018
    Just a nit pick. Instead of right and left, what about primary and offhand? Not that it matters.

    How does piercing effect poison damage? If I have physical piercing would it effect poison damage on vial and surprise attack?
  • RoyRickShawRoyRickShaw
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    What stat does poison use for damage calculation?
  • MillnMilln
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    Althyarion wrote: »
    This is an amazing forum post. I am learning a lot, there doesn't seem to be much out there on thieves. This will help my Poison build.
    What would you suggest the Luk/Dex ratio be or is there another stat I should focus on?
    I have two builds, I use Poison for bosses and my multi-attacker build any suggestions on that build? It has 1 Skill Point in Poison vial

    You're welcome, glad you found it useful! That's what I wrote it for!
    Throw every point you get into Luck is my recommendation.
    You're gonna need to explain the build before anyone gives suggestions other than "this is a poison build. this is a multi-attacker build." But please do not post it in this topic. "Rate My Build" requests are off topic for this post
    Laggiing wrote: »
    Just a nit pick. Instead of right and left, what about primary and offhand? Not that it matters.

    How does piercing effect poison damage? If I have physical piercing would it effect poison damage on vial and surprise attack?

    Yeah you right, i'll change it.
    Working on it. Piercing, of course would catch it. Physical piercing? Mmm i'll have to have a heart to heart with Pyrros one night.
    What stat does poison use for damage calculation?

    Workin' on it. It seems to use Physical Attack in at least some fashion, though it could also factor in magical attack since Retaliation does give it for some reason. One of our own self-buffs wouldn't give us Magic bonus if we didn't use it. My current hypothesis is Poison is some kind of elemental damage.
  • LaggiingLaggiing
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    Based on the fact that haste increases poison ticks and the fact that poison doesn’t go through physical shields I think physical piercing effects poison damage.
    Cactrot
  • lillucariolillucario
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    Nah @Milln has been doing a majority of the testing @Vanz haha. I only noticed the thing with haste.
  • CactrotCactrot
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    edited 3:57PM October 18, 2018
    So it seems like two-handed skills have a hidden 2x multiplier somewhere in there.

    Using a pair of 14 ~ 19 daggers, here were the following ranges:

    6 VC (50% damage): 12 ~ 16
    3 Mind Break (100% damage): 52 ~ 69
    First 3 hits of 9 PE (100% poison damage): 26 ~ 33
    4th hit of 9 PE (100% poison damage): 52 ~ 69
    5th hit of 9 PE (120% poison damage): 62 ~ 83
    Tick of level 10 PE (100% poison damage): 26 ~ 33

    Additionally, poison tick damage, SA poison explosion damage, and Rutheless Guile is 100% calculated off of your main hand.

    EDIT:

    LOL Tested with 1-handed Mind breaker. It's the same as the damage ranges for all the others. I really think that it multiplies the damage by 2 when the skill is using "both hands"

    I think, when considering builds, you should treat the following skills as these percentages:

    Somersault = 764%
    Surprise Attack = 328% (on hit only)
    4th hit of PE = 208%
    5th hit of PE = 252%
    Mindbreaker = 400%
  • SuvenSuven
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    Hi guys, so I've been experimenting with skill builds. I noticed dual-weapon based skills were doing less damage than their neutral counterparts. I had to figure out how the damage calculation works. It goes something like this:

    Lv10 vicious cuts (v.c.) does 62x5=310% if weapons have identical weapon atk (WA)

    If the weapons have different WA (for main-hand dagger with WA equal to M, and off-hand dagger with WA equal to O). ignoring the range min~max of each weapon (pick either min/max, or the average to use for M and O), then vicious cuts does about:
    damage(v.c.) = 155%*(M/M) + 155%*(O/M) = 155% * (1+r)
    where r is the ratio of the off-hand to main-hand WA. Also if O=M, we recover the identical weapon case.

    For my +14 dagger with max WA 5600, and my +11 dagger with max WA 3668:
    r = 3668/5600 = 0.655
    meaning v.c. does:
    damage(v.c.) = 155% * (1 + 0.655) = 256.525%
    so effectively my v.c. damage is lowered by ~55% because one dagger is way stronger than the other.

    When testing on a dummy,
    • first pair of cuts, main weapon hit does 7548, off hit does 4627, r_actual =0.613
    • second pair of cuts, main weapon hit does 7956, off hit does 5338, r_actual =0.671
    so the damage dealt by each hand is consistent with the formula for vicious cuts damage.

    *Note: There is some fluctuation in the value of r_actual when actually parsing, because it will account for min and max WA's, whereas I just take r to be max WA
    damage_actual(v.c.) = 155%*(1+r_actual)

    **Note: Weirdly enough v.c. skill description says it hits 5 times, but from what I can tell it hits 4 times (for symmetry, though does not effect damage formula).

    Hope this helps.
    ld7Sypx
  • HoodlumHoodlum
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    edited 4:39PM November 28, 2018
    SA is dead to me until it's capable of critting. 10 Guile 9 Deft ftw.

    By the way i'm curious where you got this information from, it looks very similar to a well known thief guide.
    You might aswell could've linked it.