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Thief hate rant.

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  • UinixUinix
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    edited 7:19AM October 31, 2018
    Delete triple post
  • _Lil_Puddin__Lil_Puddin_
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    Uinix wrote: »
    Stabbie wrote: »
    EXACTLY. The white knight here saying that those who are playing thieves are just bad at the class and they are making it look bad are one of those :

    1) not 60 yet;
    2) if 1) is achieved, not running FD yet;
    3) if 1) and 2) are achieved, not comparing damage done at the end of the fight with other players in the group;
    4) if all of the above are checked and somehow ended up top dps, they are overgeared or playing with bad people;

    Change my mind! (With screenshot)

    Ngl I can't tell if you were throwing shade at me or if you were trying to agree.
    IF you were trying to throw shade though, I'm a +13/13 max piercing/boss damage and I have over 40 runs in FD. I usually only run with premade parties with 4k+ attack. I wouldn't consider myself an amazing thief, but I would consider myself as average, but I find myself struggling to surpass 30k DPS, while all of my other party members are surpassing 30k with ease (and I do all the mechs grabbing onto dashes, standing in spots where you cant be hit by tail, dpsing from the back while laser, etc). The build I'm using is poison cuts with haste and mesoguard.
    I think they were agreeing with you and they were calling OldWarGoat a white knight. Which is appropriate, since they simultaneously misunderstood the issue while insulting players who say thieves are a bad class.

    The best best Thief cross comparisons are the following:

    1) Evagor in MapleStory 2 - and how he is described. Essentially everyone's like "he's a ****ing mess, but he's a good guy." That's Thief. A ****ing mess, but good enough. Bad, but good enough. Inconsistent, but not unbearably so. Too much work, but still worth to have around. He is an angsty boi, but a good boi. :^)

    2) Zelda in Sm4sh - despite technically having more tools/gimmicks than most of the other characters, she is still bad to her very core. She's flashy and sassy; bad and still viable. She requires the most precision/anticipation/patience, making her bad by default in a fast paced game. But still (somehow) viable despite the odds being waaaay against her.

    Saying "if you think Thieves are bad then you must be bad jajajajajaja!!!" just means you're in denial and/or do not understand the character you're playing. At all. Thieves are bad. Not nonviable. Not unfun. Not useless. Just bad. A portion of their woes comes from Fair Fight. But most of their woes come from bad core mechanics. Ironically, their core mechanics being garbage could easily be justified if they brought something else to the table. Although ideally, they'd appreciate a slight powershift to have less reliance on Cunning and/or Retaliation just to have a hefty contribution that's on par with other classes in their group (DPS/Melee DPS).

    But nooooooo, that'd be too easy of a way to make them OK-ish. We want them viable and bad! Not viable and OK! Geeeeez~ </s>
  • Oldwargoat39Oldwargoat39
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    edited 11:41PM November 1, 2018
    I noticed one constant thing people who are bashing on thief: they don't play the class at all!! I do not want to play braindead DPS classes I want a challenge and the better I get the better my DPS becomes, but most of you only have 1-2 buttons to press and easy DPS...you folks that bag on thief is a joke and you should play the job and play it before you bag on it..and not just for 10 mins, to level cap and figure out the rotation then like most of us thief mains have........ Oh, wait, 1 or 2 button DPS over actually putting effort into playing this game... too hard....like I said Braindead players play braindead DPS jobs and I have no respect for players who bash others for trying to actually put some effort into playing this game.
  • Oldwargoat39Oldwargoat39
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    Kriptini wrote: »
    suchalameo wrote: »
    Kriptini wrote: »
    Think of it this way - the more hate Thief gets and the more the community complains about it, the more likely they are to be buffed. If you truly care about Thieves, don't ever defend them. Make sure you complain about them as much as possible.

    If they buff thieves when they're not actually bad people are just bad, then it will become over-tuned; then it will get properly nerfed. A majority can tilt wrong decisions that lead to self fulfilling prophecies.

    But Thieves are bad. Play with highly skilled players and you will see this.

    something you most likely never done and I have played with high skilled players and the ones bagging on thief are THE BRAINDEADPLAYERS (like you) WHO ONLY PLAY BRAIN DEAD DPS CLASSES!!!!
  • _Lil_Puddin__Lil_Puddin_
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    edited 8:39AM November 2, 2018
    I noticed one constant thing people who are bashing on thief: they don't play the class at all!!
    A majority of people are criticizing the Thief class because Thieves are bad. It's common sense because their core mechanics are flawed. Not to the point of being unviable, just to the point of being too out of our control. However, there are some people who outright bash the class and those people are most likely "DPS is all that matters, look at my huge epeen, you are not worthy to be in my presence" type of folks. Also known as obsessed elitists or violent tryhards... In a very casual game... Yikes, amirite?

    Still, your attitude isn't very delightful at the moment. You might want to be more understanding and less critical/defensive. Hear what people are saying. Don't just react.
    Kriptini wrote: »
    suchalameo wrote: »
    Kriptini wrote: »
    Think of it this way - the more hate Thief gets and the more the community complains about it, the more likely they are to be buffed. If you truly care about Thieves, don't ever defend them. Make sure you complain about them as much as possible.

    If they buff thieves when they're not actually bad people are just bad, then it will become over-tuned; then it will get properly nerfed. A majority can tilt wrong decisions that lead to self fulfilling prophecies.

    But Thieves are bad. Play with highly skilled players and you will see this.

    something you most likely never done and I have played with high skilled players and the ones bagging on thief are THE BRAINDEADPLAYERS (like you) WHO ONLY PLAY BRAIN DEAD DPS CLASSES!!!!
    HunTy, the truth is, this game is very casual and lax. Thief's difficulty stems from artificial means (reliance on RNG, something out of your control for the most part). In terms of actual usage, it's just pushing a few buttons in a pattern, knowing boss movements, and scurrying around. Nothing in this game is truly hard. No class is braindead either; that implies they do absolutely nothing and yet still contribute the most. You don't get anywhere by insulting entire groups of (non-awful) people - whether it's in life or online.

    Players want Thieves to be like other DPS in terms of consistency, not in terms of playstyle. Wouldn't it be nice to have your button-pushing efforts mean roughly the same thing every single time? Because right now, Thieves are going "Oh gee, I sure hope the RNG makes my effort worth it this time around!"

    I personally like the gambling aspect of Thief, but they lack any party utility to allow them to be of use if the RNG says "Nah, not today." So I would like Haste to be a party buff, which means Thief stays the same playstyle wise and then they don't feel kinda-lame when the RNG says "lmao nah." imo Haste becoming a party buff would be the easiest way to fix Thieves without worrying about breaking them.

    The other option is to move 20%-33% of Cunning's effect on abilities to the base ability. Meaning Cunning will still be quite powerful, but now the base abilities won't be totally hit-or-miss. But that means balancing many abilities and not just 1.

    Vendal
  • FearmypawsFearmypaws
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    HlUgyWJ.png my thief outgear than my zerker alt, this is just so sad of thief
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    Yeah, my Knight with a full dps spec has the same dps as my thief in FD, and my thief has +12 weapons while my knight has a +10.

    Granted my knight does have shield toss, which gives her a bit more piercing.
  • VendalVendal
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    Kriptini wrote: »
    suchalameo wrote: »
    Kriptini wrote: »
    Think of it this way - the more hate Thief gets and the more the community complains about it, the more likely they are to be buffed. If you truly care about Thieves, don't ever defend them. Make sure you complain about them as much as possible.

    If they buff thieves when they're not actually bad people are just bad, then it will become over-tuned; then it will get properly nerfed. A majority can tilt wrong decisions that lead to self fulfilling prophecies.

    But Thieves are bad. Play with highly skilled players and you will see this.

    something you most likely never done and I have played with high skilled players and the ones bagging on thief are THE BRAINDEADPLAYERS (like you) WHO ONLY PLAY BRAIN DEAD DPS CLASSES!!!!

    You are very wrong. I love thief. I love the skill it takes, I love the dodginess, and the style and the movement. But if you think we can perform as well as other classes you are very wrong. Our numbers are just worse. Plain and simple. If you actually watch theory crafters show off in fight, with dps counts, with gear comparisons, it is very clear that we are under-powered. Especially as a class that doesn't have any team synergy. Also stop being the jerk who name calls and doesn't actually think of an argument or provide evidence to back up claims.
  • _Lil_Puddin__Lil_Puddin_
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    Fearmypaws wrote: »
    HlUgyWJ.png my thief outgear than my zerker alt, this is just so sad of thief
    RNG is a rude and lame heaux. This is proof.

    The RNG Heaux must be destroyed. Which means Thieves need a re-balance to the power dynamic between base abilities and Cunning. Or, y'know, party utility of some kind that is actually useful vs bosses (attack speed/movement speed is nice).

    side note: eaux is the classy way to say oe :^)
  • NightThiefNightThief
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    edited 7:01PM November 7, 2018
    Fearmypaws wrote: »
    HlUgyWJ.png my thief outgear than my zerker alt, this is just so sad of thief
    RNG is a rude and lame heaux. This is proof.

    The RNG Heaux must be destroyed. Which means Thieves need a re-balance to the power dynamic between base abilities and Cunning. Or, y'know, party utility of some kind that is actually useful vs bosses (attack speed/movement speed is nice).

    side note: eaux is the classy way to say oe :^)

    Haste should definitely not be a party utility, the only party utility i think would benefit thief would be a de-buff towards a boss monster.
  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    edited 6:03AM November 8, 2018
    Not really a fan of thief getting a party buff. If anything at most let thief steal defenses from a target they're focusing like how wits end and black cleaver works in league of legends. But buffing the party isn't thief-like at all. That being said I'd rather thief not get anything like these but a debuff is far better than party buff.

    But I still feel they fix all the prerequisite skillpoint crap thief has to deal with, address cunning gain from double slash, and a few more possible buffs afterward, thief would be fixed already. Thief isn't in some detrimental state some make it out to be.
  • SAN_QSAN_Q
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    Would just be nice if cunning had psuedo-rng on DS like how crit works in league -> the longer you go not cunning the higher chance you'll cunning.

    Can anyone confirm if we are currently recieving the haste PHYSICAl damage buff?
  • NightThiefNightThief
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    Not really a fan of thief getting a party buff. If anything at most let thief steal defenses from a target they're focusing like how wits end and black cleaver works in league of legends. But buffing the party isn't thief-like at all. That being said I'd rather thief not get anything like these but a debuff is far better than party buff.

    But I still feel they fix all the prerequisite skillpoint crap thief has to deal with, address cunning gain from double slash, and a few more possible buffs afterward, thief would be fixed already. Thief isn't in some detrimental state some make it out to be.

    Yeah thief with a party buff has to be one of the silliest things ever. It will also take the whole point of being a thief away. It's literally meant to be a selfish class, not a backline supporter smh...
  • _Lil_Puddin__Lil_Puddin_
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    NightThief wrote: »
    Not really a fan of thief getting a party buff. If anything at most let thief steal defenses from a target they're focusing like how wits end and black cleaver works in league of legends. But buffing the party isn't thief-like at all. That being said I'd rather thief not get anything like these but a debuff is far better than party buff.

    But I still feel they fix all the prerequisite skillpoint crap thief has to deal with, address cunning gain from double slash, and a few more possible buffs afterward, thief would be fixed already. Thief isn't in some detrimental state some make it out to be.

    Yeah thief with a party buff has to be one of the silliest things ever. It will also take the whole point of being a thief away. It's literally meant to be a selfish class, not a backline supporter smh...
    I was basing it off Thief's personality, which is shown to be (overly) giving. Which is why the Thief's life is flipped around and they wind up in Lith Harbor.

    Gameplay wise it synergizes with their current kit - assuming Haste will be up anyway and they will be stealing SP as frequently as possible. It would also mean they get to keep their ***backwards gambling mechanics without bogging down their party (because yay, attack speed buffs and stuff). They will be melee-ish still. (GOOOOOOOOOOOOORL "backline supporter smh" don't be as extra, but sass is still appreciated.)

    The easy fix would be to transform Cunning into what it was obviously meant to be (opportunistic damage, not a basically-necessary damage increase). -25% of Cunning's 100% damage boost, +25% to every base move (effected by cunning). Then ramp it up little by little if that's not enough. They keep their gambling mechanics, but, like, now they aren't dead weight if the RNGawdess is getting her nails done instead of helping Thieves not-suck.

    If we wanna be cute we can give them a Def Debuff because teehee thieves stealing things teehee. But it'd just be a bandaid over their main problem (much like the Haste Support Buff would be tbh). The other downside being it adds another thing for the Thief to juggle/spam in between everything else.
  • SentineIsSentineIs
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    A skill where the thief steals sp, and gives it to their allies would be pretty funny. I'm sad that thief doesn't have a stealth skill though. It'd be cool if Surprise Attack made you go invisible, increase movement speed, then BOOM SUPRISE!
  • NightThiefNightThief
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    NightThief wrote: »
    Not really a fan of thief getting a party buff. If anything at most let thief steal defenses from a target they're focusing like how wits end and black cleaver works in league of legends. But buffing the party isn't thief-like at all. That being said I'd rather thief not get anything like these but a debuff is far better than party buff.

    But I still feel they fix all the prerequisite skillpoint crap thief has to deal with, address cunning gain from double slash, and a few more possible buffs afterward, thief would be fixed already. Thief isn't in some detrimental state some make it out to be.

    Yeah thief with a party buff has to be one of the silliest things ever. It will also take the whole point of being a thief away. It's literally meant to be a selfish class, not a backline supporter smh...
    I was basing it off Thief's personality, which is shown to be (overly) giving. Which is why the Thief's life is flipped around and they wind up in Lith Harbor.

    Gameplay wise it synergizes with their current kit - assuming Haste will be up anyway and they will be stealing SP as frequently as possible. It would also mean they get to keep their ***backwards gambling mechanics without bogging down their party (because yay, attack speed buffs and stuff). They will be melee-ish still. (GOOOOOOOOOOOOORL "backline supporter smh" don't be as extra, but sass is still appreciated.)

    The easy fix would be to transform Cunning into what it was obviously meant to be (opportunistic damage, not a basically-necessary damage increase). -25% of Cunning's 100% damage boost, +25% to every base move (effected by cunning). Then ramp it up little by little if that's not enough. They keep their gambling mechanics, but, like, now they aren't dead weight if the RNGawdess is getting her nails done instead of helping Thieves not-suck.

    If we wanna be cute we can give them a Def Debuff because teehee thieves stealing things teehee. But it'd just be a bandaid over their main problem (much like the Haste Support Buff would be tbh). The other downside being it adds another thing for the Thief to juggle/spam in between everything else.

    The only reason I say Haste shouldn't be global is because everyone else will be getting an attack damage and speed increase in the same value as the thief player, making us literally do abysmal damage compared to everyone else!

    However I do agree that we should get some sort of buff towards cunning, I also thinking making haste not drain any SP or reducing the intervals to something like 2 sp every second would be a lot more fair!

    I have faith in GMS2 that they will actually give thief some sort of love instead of the shyt they receive in KMS - It is true that the class is a lot more simple after awakening but that's all they did other than give us better ST DPS, there are multiple bosses in the new raid so it seems like Nexon literally added that mechanics to intentionally nerf thief ¬_¬.

    There are new maps(Raids) releasing in Korea and also new Awakening skills coming on top of the ones that are already released(which still shocks me =O), hopefully the new skill fixes everything, but only time will tell right? =(...
  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    edited 7:50AM November 10, 2018
    I was basing it off Thief's personality, which is shown to be (overly) giving. Which is why the Thief's life is flipped around and they wind up in Lith Harbor.

    Gameplay wise it synergizes with their current kit - assuming Haste will be up anyway and they will be stealing SP as frequently as possible. It would also mean they get to keep their ***backwards gambling mechanics without bogging down their party (because yay, attack speed buffs and stuff). They will be melee-ish still. (GOOOOOOOOOOOOORL "backline supporter smh" don't be as extra, but sass is still appreciated.)

    The easy fix would be to transform Cunning into what it was obviously meant to be (opportunistic damage, not a basically-necessary damage increase). -25% of Cunning's 100% damage boost, +25% to every base move (effected by cunning). Then ramp it up little by little if that's not enough. They keep their gambling mechanics, but, like, now they aren't dead weight if the RNGawdess is getting her nails done instead of helping Thieves not-suck.

    If we wanna be cute we can give them a Def Debuff because teehee thieves stealing things teehee. But it'd just be a bandaid over their main problem (much like the Haste Support Buff would be tbh). The other downside being it adds another thing for the Thief to juggle/spam in between everything else.

    http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/41683/simple-fixes-for-thief-for-now

    That's my suggestion for fixing thief. I was merely saying a thief buffing the party is not at all like the class and I even pointed out even a defense debuff I'd rather not have. Buffing or debuffing will not aid thief but only aid those already doing the most which is not the player.

    Focusing on cunning is good but the whole giving the party who's already doing the most, more of thief's power was a horrible idea. Noone was being "cute" about a defense debuff, was merely pointing out it would be better but reread what I actually said and you would notice "That being said I'd rather thief not get anything like these".
  • MiskyMisky
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    I've seen plenty of thiefs topping the dps meter in cdev pugs, so i don't see whats all the fuzz about them being a bad class that needs some buffs.
    Once again, that would be part of the reason i haven't made it past 50% lol. Maybe at a higher level they become worse compared to other classes?
  • EcchiOtakuTMEcchiOtakuTM
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    Misky wrote: »
    I've seen plenty of thiefs topping the dps meter in cdev pugs, so i don't see whats all the fuzz about them being a bad class that needs some buffs.
    Once again, that would be part of the reason i haven't made it past 50% lol. Maybe at a higher level they become worse compared to other classes?

    Thief already has the damage in kit, but it's artificially forced to be harder to pull off when it's already one of the lowest range classes to be in the frey tbh. Thief doesn't need damage buffs just QoL ones. I pretty much summed up the main points in the thread linked a post above you but:

    Our skill builds are restricted a bit simply by prerequisites, a simple glance at them and you can see this.
    Double Slash cunning generate just needs a slight more consistency, which is simple to fix just slightly increase the chance on every hit which fails to generate it.

    Removing cunning damage to increase our bases as someone pointed out still would not address the wild rng there is. Even with maxed double slash I've had times where it simply failed to generate and the idea to remove damage but increase the bases does nothing for poison edge, blade dance, mesoguard plus, and simply gaining the cunning for movement speed to keep up with a boss which it is used for at times. That's the main reason I do not agree with their suggestion, thief has the damage already but other things need to be just a bit better.

    Haste SP drain is a bit more selfish of a suggestion since it does nothing for non-haste builds sadly (which could be remedied by reducing mesoguard plus' cooldown), but let's say runeblade preawakened. Runeblade gets 25% elemental damage, 7% weapon damage, and up to 10% crit damage passively which bumps up to 30% while active all of this is essentially free and with the current skill points it is possible for them to have this on their build. Thief's get 17% physical damage for 8 sp a second, which if you don't essentially live in you can't get use to and it does nothing to help clearing adds to reach a boss because you'll have nothing to hit meaning each fight starts with 0 mana hampering your ability to at least start a fight properly and even worse nothing is ever perfect, getting cc'd, unable to hit a boss due to invulnerable times, them moving away, etc. All it does is rapidly drop your sp further hampering performance.

    Basically thief does not have all these damage issues some misunderstand, thief has more than enough damage in kit. Problem is solely skillpoints in things that aren't the focus of thief's many builds for the most part. Cunning generation is pretty bad and it's used for a lot more than just damage, just a bit more consistency is all that's asked for. Lastly SP drain was cool on paper, but with the mainly things that can hamper sp generation all it does is kick thief in the butt and remove a good chunk of power when it isn't even vastly more powerful than everything else. Just needs a bit of lowering if not removed, even from 4 every half a second to 4 every second would be a good start imo.
  • _Lil_Puddin__Lil_Puddin_
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    SentineIs wrote: »
    A skill where the thief steals sp, and gives it to their allies would be pretty funny. I'm sad that thief doesn't have a stealth skill though. It'd be cool if Surprise Attack made you go invisible, increase movement speed, then BOOM SUPRISE!
    Thieves would go from F Tier to SSS+ Tier them lmao. 10/10 pls Nexon I want an unironically Ban-worthy character for once.

    An electric based Heavy Gunner would just be spamming lasers nonstop and would probably be the top tier DPS easy for every boss battle where a Thief is present.

    #MakeUnderdogsGreatAgain
    Misky wrote: »
    I've seen plenty of thiefs topping the dps meter in cdev pugs, so i don't see whats all the fuzz about them being a bad class that needs some buffs.
    Once again, that would be part of the reason i haven't made it past 50% lol. Maybe at a higher level they become worse compared to other classes?
    Like, the basics of their kit are fine. Buuut the longer the battle, the more it becomes apparent that Cunning is too necessary for the Thief to keep up with normal DPSers. Of course, if Cunning was on 100% time they'd be OP since it doubles the ability's base damage. If Cunning doesn't activate enough, they're low tier DPS.

    The lack of consistency, despite demanding the most out of all the classes, is very risky for a very-melee-oriented class. Especially when the other melee bois hit harder or can take harder hits/provide party utility. Then there are ranged bois dealing the same/better damage while being safe(r) than a Thief. So people see the bad time Thieves occasionally have and assume that's Thief 100% of the time. Hence the stigma. Inconsistency is the bane of a character's existence in games where elitists exist. :^(
    Focusing on cunning is good but the whole giving the party who's already doing the most, more of thief's power was a horrible idea. Noone was being "cute" about a defense debuff, was merely pointing out it would be better but reread what I actually said and you would notice "That being said I'd rather thief not get anything like these".
    Gorl whatchu mean? It is cute tho because a thief is stealing things as their name implies. Instead of just stabbing things with daggers.