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Thief Feelings

Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,060
Posts: 45
edited 11:02AM October 11, 2018 in Thief
Heya guys, just trying to clear the air here and give others a sum up and a real thing to discuss or look at instead of "life sux"; something we can actually use as a talking point when we might be up on the plate for development or even other player review.

Please let me know if I got anything wrong or missed a perspective.

From what i've read and discussed about PvE with other Thief players is the following:
We feel like we have to work disproportionately harder and put forth disproportionately more effort in simply playing the game and learning an encounter compared to other classes.
The damage we put out when playing in optimal conditions is felt like it does not exceed other classes that do not need to exude this effort.
The random chance in our kit (Cunning proc), while not a stranger to MMORPGs, does not feel good.
We want our skills to:

Corrected ones:
> Math out correctly - Poison Edge at level 10 says it deals 104% damage per strike, with the 5th dealing 124%. The first hit of Poison Edge deals significantly less than the last hit. If we assume the last hit to be correct at 124%, then the first hit is dealing maybe 40% Poison, rather than 104%. I figured it out. It calculates damage per dagger hand.
> Work (Poison stacking, ) This works correctly and bug was fixed. Poison Edge will now correctly apply a maximum of 5 stacks of poison according to how many times you hit with the skill.
> Read Clearly (Mind Stealer > Mind Breaker does not clearly add up the total damage in the tooltip. References to Poison Blow vs. Edge, etc.) Corrected and/or Realized.
> Math out correctly (grievances about higher percentage damage not actually dealing more damage than another skill that displays lower percentage damage) Poison Damage follows a different calculation that non-poison damage.
From another topic by SmashSenpai * Thief doesn't know how to do math. If my Vicious Cuts (310%) deals 25k damage, Somersault Kick (382%) will do 40k damage, and proc'd Surprise Attack (584%) deals 20k damage.
> While we have Quick Step (40 Stamina per) and Mind Stealer as mobility so if we know a boss fight, getting hit is less likely... when we do get hit, the feeling is that we get shredded.
> Since we don't have the claim of highest damage, and none of our skills assist or enhance party members nor debuff enemies in a meaningful way (movespeed and jump power on a raid boss is pointless), we genuinely contribute nothing to a party and might even negatively affect a clear party simply by existing when it could be taken by any other class.

Thieves want to have a meaningful place in PvE, is all we're saying.
(We're mostly fine with PvP. Don't touch that, probably)

All of this and meanwhile, Berserker just holds down their Spin key and Void Slash + Bloodlusts sometimes and gets top DPS (exaggeration for comedy)
(Raid spoiler)


  • ZyconZycon
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 905
    Posts: 38
    Okay, so I agree thief needs a buff, I'll just correct a few things.

    1.Poison stacking isn't the biggest deal in the world so it really isn't a big difference maker in pve. All you need is flask and that works fine.
    2.Also, you can see cunning effects if you hover over skills while cunning is active. Stupid, I know. Easy change, I know. But it's not like we have no idea what these skills do.

    Now, my problem with thief is that we're required to use skills that have almost non-existent scaling but also cost a lot of points. For instance, Ruthless Guile acts as a second attack and for every line we do, it adds an 11% damage line. Really good for the amount of hits we deal. Actually required since the scaling on Vicious Cuts (62%) and Double Slash (49%) are awful in their own way. Because of this skill though, Vicious Cuts (non-cunning) technically get's a 17.7% increase and Double Slash gets a 22.4% damage increase. What does it take to max out Ruthless Guile though? It takes 23 skill points! This is not including a maxed double slash which is also required and we haven't even gone down the vicious cuts tree yet.

    When awakening comes, things get fairly worse when it comes to scaling. Our awakening isn't too bad and we get a pretty needed buff but we still require insane effort to succeed. What's worse is that we still use double slash which is a 49% damage skill as filler because it's just that important and there's no way around it. What's also amazing is that we still don't have enough points to max out our build post awakening. Think about it; we no longer need to max Vicious Cuts, Somersault Kick and Deft Combatant yet we still can't get all the other skills we use! It's pretty insane what we need to have versus what we actually have.

    So for me, a reasonable buff is less skill point requirements and better scaling on Double Slash, Vicious Cuts, and Sudden attack.
  • MillnMilln
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,060
    Posts: 45
    edited 7:04AM October 8, 2018
    In regards to the list here:

    > Work (Poison stacking, ) - This works correctly and bug was fixed. Poison Edge will now correctly apply a maximum of 5 stacks of poison according to how many times you hit with the skill.

    > Read Clearly (Mind Stealer > Mind Breaker does not clearly add up the total damage in the tooltip. References to Poison Blow vs. Edge, etc.)
    Mind Breaker does x% of the original 40%. This means that maxed Mind Breaker at 500% damage, deals 500% of 40% damage.... meaning 200%. It reads clearly, it's just not how I imagined it to be explained.

    > Math out correctly (grievances about Somersault Kick/Cuts vs. Procced Surprise Attack)

    This one is a big epiphany, y'all.
    Poison Damage is not physical damage.

    It's a type of elemental damage. Perhaps it gets something from our physical attack, but I imagine it's largely unaffected.
    Poison Edge, Poison Vial, Ruthless Guile, and Surprise Attack all deal Poison Damage, so their calculation is !! Different !! and unorthodox. This is easily viewed by hitting a practice dummy in your guild hall with level 10 Poison Edge (100%-ish for the non-last strikes) with just the first two strikes. You probably did something between 2 and 5k twice, depending on your gearscore, right? Now do Level 10 Mind Breaker, a 200% damage damage skill. You'll do 13k easy and minimum. Mind Breaker, Somersault, etc. are not elemental damage and it's clear, to me, that the poison attacks follow a different equation.

    Also, at the risk of starting an argument that none of us really want or care for: I've been running poison build and consistently getting top or 2nd damage in pugs and in my guild when we dungeon, clearing my add pop before two others can get theirs, etc.. Poison isn't trash once you legitimately start speccing and building into it. It's worth investigating further.