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Reflecting on progression in kms2 and gms2 cbt

msongymsongy
MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,055
Posts: 19
Member
edited 5:20PM August 2, 2018 in General Chat
Progression in MS2 is so kinda... unfulfilling and unrealistic in both versions I've played - I'll break this up into 3 parts.

1) The tutorial phase is tedious and repetitive:
Level 1~50 (GMS CBT) || Level 1~70 (KMS)
Sometimes I ask myself when I play any modern mmo, why it's such a norm to force (or repeat if you have alts) a 10~20hr worth of tutorial anytime I want to make a new character. Of course I wasn't really expecting MS2 to be different, but this game's intro phase are similar to that of other's already on the market but even worse - awful cinematics and a story line that NOBODY is paying attention to. Really just change the soft cap progression to 'hit the space bar 1521 times' to reach level x and get some starter stuff so you can start doing shitty dungeons.

Why the hell am I doing life-skill, flying-balloon tutorials over and over? I mean it's probably only 30 minutes worth of doing over again - but just remove it altogether for people who already have multiple soft-cap characters. What a waste of time..

Really 80% of the tutorial (hitting soft cap) is you walking to places and pressing space bar, 10% is killing stuff, 10% press esc and ok to skip cinematics (some of which can't be skipped). While there are some half-assed attempts to teach you some in game gimmicks and mechanics, it's just kinda thrown at you and not at all seamless. Maybe if you're being exposed to this content for the first time - I can understand it might be SOMEwhat useful. But I don't want to play baby mode for 20hrs just to enjoy something new. Maybe, a 'would you like to skip the tutorial' kind of thing would be nice. Having said that, this is still not that big of an issue compared to what's down the road.

2) Gearing, gear scores, dungeon transitions are an absolute steaming pile of terribad dogshit:
I have a really good feeling, the devs don't play this game on a regular basis - they just kind of add , change a few numbers - do a quick test run and if certain changes fit their not so thorough agenda of 'balance', they will pass it. By the way, I'm not saying this because I think cDev or Balrog was too difficult or anything - it's not - both are very simple and do-able with the right setup/people even during CBT.

It makes NO SENSE, things like why anyone would try to farm Balrog when the rewards are marginally better than FD's loots despite being significantly longer/difficult; why the gear transition from from lvl 50 normals dungeons to hard dungeons are so unpredictable and determined by RNGesus; why cDev has such a misleading and low gear requirement of 3.3K. I can guarantee that of the people who ran FD and above, 95% of them bought purple gear to help bypass the FD gs requirement, it just doesn't make sense to try and progress through the starting level 50 dungeons due to drop rates and gear. The best strategy for gear in this game, is to wait until the top few lucky or skilled individuals make it available for everyone else and let it trickle down because trying to do anything like self steady progression is impossible. This is apparent in both CBT (so far) and KMS as well; the best way to get high level gear and transition to the upper class in KMS, is to save up money or buy money using merets and pay a fee for somebody to carry you through chaos raids. This is extremely popular in Korea, even people who can clear chaos raids legitimately, will sit in these so called bus parties since it's way more convenient.

This is so sad to see in an rpg type game, where progress and grinding should be fun, rewarding, and just as importantly - meaningful and logical. You guys really need to find a better way for people to transition through gear and different dungeons so that people don't have to resort to being bus'd and buying shortcut purple gear. Even in Korea, many dungeons are just arbitrarily harder than others through bigger numbers despite having similar gs requirements and rewards/drops. Having said that what are these gear score requirements? They make absolutely no goddamn sense, so many people trying Balrog or cDev with the 'minimum' requirements have no idea what kind of ride they're in for (You could say the same for many hard dungeons in Korea as well). I often find myself carrying people who shouldn't be here yet, they really should be practicing other dungeons with slightly easier difficulties and working their way up the ladder. So many people who don't know what to expect or haven't played this game before will clear high end dungeons by being bus'd. They can't even practice it realistically because it's just out right impossible if they don't have what they 'actually' need for dungeons. Hint for people who didn't clear cDev in CBT: you need around 15% piercing from PVP gear and 4.5~5k+ dmg minimum. Of course this won't be relevant in the future since cDev will be overlapped with better end game stuff....

The point I'm trying to get across is, the level 50 normal dungeons should drop stuff that should make your transition into hard dungeons a little bit easier. Balrog should drop significantly better gear for the increase in difficulty and cDev needs to be tuned down a bit or have a higher gs requirement to not confuse newbies. All in all, transitions and progress need to make more sense, be more relatable from one point to another and feel seamless IMO. Either way, the CBT stuff will probably not be so relevant since it's such a small part of a bigger picture, but my points still stand if I were to play KMS instead. The growth in gear should be larger in some dungeons, and chaos raid growth is too big.

3) The sad future of gearing: Gemstones, Lumistones, Skin/Coordi Tab P2W
If you thought gear progression was bad in CBT, you need to wait until these babies come out. TBH, as a player having played in KMS for a bit - I felt at so much ease seeing sockets and gemstones not into play yet. It's just because farming gemstones are an absolute nightmare, but they contribute more than half your late game scaling if you don't have them you can't consider yourself 'properly geared'. I will spare you the details, but farming gemstones are so tedious - if you don't have a full time job playing MS2 you will never EVER farm/max them out. Many people including myself, just outright use real life money to trade currencies and buy high level gem stones instead. I've played many mmo's but farming these guys are so unreal... I'm going to go out out on a limb and say you need about 100+ hrs just to max one, and there are a total of 9 sockets.

I don't know where this all started, but nexon games have started implementing skin + coordi tabs. The first time I noticed it was in Mabinogi, where they introduced stat enhancing effects on skins so people complained they needed to get skins that they didn't want and nexon introduced a 2nd layer of skin tabs that overrides skins called coordi's. It's load of P2W bullshit, but I've pretty much accepted it by this point - but KMS takes it another level further. Basically, all skins in MS2 will have sockets (some exclusive ones will have set effects lol) that you can put these little fuckers called lumistones inside of them. Sockets need to be created via cash items and lumistones can be upgraded via those same cash items. This is the one area, where no amount of hard-work will help you max them out. I mean you get a little booger's worth of the needed cash items from some life skill leveling and events but the main bulk will have to be bought your with real life money. These are also an absolute necessity since they roughly double your physical/magical damage stats.

Of course I haven't included the tons of other 'P2Conv' in their cash shops but that's somewhat okay with me since I can't afford to no life this game. I think realistically speaking you will need to spend at least few hundred dollar (probably more, depends on your expectations) to hit proper gear at a realistic pace. I have no problems with spending real life money on games, but I wish it would just be 'fair' and spending money shouldn't be a necessity to keep up with gear. If the product is right, I will spend hundreds maybe even thousands.

While there's a really good chance this falls on deaf ears, if the nexon dev's ever get a chance to read this, I hope you guys reconsider how GMS2 gear progression will be structured. A few tweaking of details and some numbers changes could dramatically change the enjoy-ability of this game while still providing lots of time to explore progression. I pray that lumistones and coordi tab's will be never be ported and that gemstone farming will be a little bit more sane, convenient and fun (although change is EXTREMELY unlikely).

EDIT: so many swear words censored, if you see a place where a word seems to be omitted, insert a random swear word and should do fine.
NaosDanDK
  1. Agree or nah19 votes
    1. Yea
       42% (8 votes)
    2. Kinda
       32% (6 votes)
    3. Nah
       26% (5 votes)

Comments

  • AexyAexy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 940
    Posts: 28
    Member
    edited 4:57PM August 2, 2018
    Thank you for the detailed words!
    I have a few questions I'm thinking about right now.
    I'd like to ask you as it seems like you're an experienced MS 2 player.

    I'm still wondering about the future of MS2.
    of course, it seems pretty weird to do so if it isn't even released yet, but still -

    MS1 was actually the last MMO i played, years ago.
    And what I loved about MS1 was the fact that the gearing and leveling actually seemed endless (I Played during the time when Tiger and suuushi were pretty famous nr.1&2 and maybe like lvl 116. Maybe sbdy remembers them :D). And this endless gearing road was so awesome. Of course it was a grindfest but still it felt so rewarding when you achieved something new. A new weapon after days of "working" for this wpn. Finally some new skilsl with the new class/job! Stuff like this.

    Are there moments like this in MS2?
    It doesn't seems like, while reading your words.
    I know you don't have this "unlimited player levels" thing, but still - are there even different weapons after reaching lvl 50?

    Do "epic/legendary" weapons actually look different?

    Is there a Diversity in the visuals of equipment/weapons (not talking about skins) in general?

    Or is it alwaysthe same weapon with a different colour for it's name

    Or do you only keep upgrading the same one over and over. Wouldn't rly appreciate this since i guess the moment equipping a new wpn the first time in MS1 was one of the best possible.
    Or - do you think there will be Moments like this in MS2 in the future? Or if you go full pessimistic - do you think MS2 has a future?
    How's the mood over there in korea? Do the devs still want to create a longliving and awesome game, even if it's only for more money?
    Do the think about awesome new jobs or skills? It's pretty hard to find infos about KMS2 and CMS2.

    I totally feel like diving into a mmo again, after i didn't do so the last years.
    But I don't wanna jump into a pool that's leaking. I want to dive into something that has at least a chance to evolve into sth awesome.

    Thank you in advance and enjoy your night :)
    aexy
    DanDK
  • msongymsongy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,055
    Posts: 19
    Member
    edited 5:18PM August 2, 2018
    @Aexy
    Uhh I'm not completely sure what you're trying to say but, despite my complaints, I still think the game is pretty fun. But in Korea, basically the end game currently there are 3 different sets of level 60 legendary gear, stat wise it's pretty much on par with that of the legendary gear from CBT except they have varying on hit and set effects (maybe a little stronger). Getting a specific equipment is not very hard, since you can just pay for a party to carry you.

    Upgrading it perfectly will still take some time due to dungeon limits and mat farming... (This is not even relevant to my post).

    The game itself as a whole, is very good, it has a good foundation below it - the art, combat, pvp, even gearing - despite what I said in the post, is not bad. The point of my post was not to say MS2 is a shiet game and that will die. It was to try and point out some flaws with progression (MY OPINIONS). I personally think the 2nd job skills are great addition to the game and believe that MS2 will be very popular for a long time despite nay-sayers.

    My post was just trying to explain that progression is a little disorganized, it could be better structured - I wasn't saying end-game gear is non-existent or that's impossible to upgrade them. In both the CBT and in KMS I had above average gear (+14 purple gear in CBT, stopped playing the last 5 days) (over 20k weapon dmg in korea). I probably could've been in the .01% gear range for both servers if I spent more time and money but just didn't want to.

    Visually, I can't really say I've seen two of the same kind of characters. Everybody has their own designs, and while the base weapons or equipments are not too varying in the high end - so many people have equip transmogs and/or skins everybody looks pretty unique IMO.
    XtonyAexy
  • iAMAZEuiAMAZEu
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,395
    Posts: 125
    Member
    1) idk seemed easy to me, even with the intermittent lvling gaps. Didn't need to do side quests either. I got to level 50 in cbt2 a little over an hour before the daily reset. so it took about ~5-6 hrs (not an exaggerated 20 hours). Those who wanted to "grind" probably didn't get to clear the chaos raid :smh:.

    2) gear score is kind of lame, but it's a way to gate progression. However, even with the gating, we cleared the chaos raid on the 4th day.

    3) yea farming is a grind, but I wouldn't want to get everything (i.e. gems/lumistones) in a week. I think those that take the time to grind it out should be rewarded.

    4) just because you can pay to get carried and get gear, doesn't mean you will automatically be able to clear the dungeon. Hence, #gitgud

    VnR9CgH.png
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,680
    Posts: 258
    Member
    edited 5:30PM August 2, 2018
    Completely agree that gear progression was absolutely horrible. The difference between Fire Dragon and Balrog was huge and a big part of the difficulty boost just felt artificial because of the much higher numbers and hitboxes that make no sense. And despite that, the weapon reward from Balrog are barely better than the tradeable purples that many people buy before Fire Dragon. A +12 dagger from Balrog was barely better than a +12 Ikar Morde dagger that I had, and for some reason, the Balrog weapons have a lower gear score.

    And even when I had +12 on my Balrog dagger and almost 5k GS, I still couldn't contribute a fair share to CDev. And this was after practicing a bunch, when I was managing to play with no deaths, getting hit minimal times, and optimizing damage (I consistently got first in total damage in most all purple parties I was in). In the end, it was because I had insufficient piercing, but there was no way I could get the gear from the PvP shop because I'd just get slaughtered by the legendary players.

    So this just leaves getting piercing from normal gear, which is just unrealistic. Piercing, from what I've seen, only comes from accessories and weapons. However, purple accessories are stupidly rare, out of 15 Balrog clears and just as many Fire Dragon clear, I have not seen a single belt or cape. I did get a purple ring and earring, but only one of each. Even if you had some tremendous luck and get the accessories, piercing isn't exactly a common stat, so you will likely have to reroll the bonus attributes until you get piercing (you can only reroll gear that are at least purple). And the more you reroll a single piece of gear, the more expensive it will get, so unless you get crazy lucky multiple times, you will be spending a ton trying to roll piercing.

    And even once you manage to get piercing on a few pieces, the max each piece will have is 4%, which is unlikely, so you can realistically expect less than 2% per piece. So then, you will have to get the scroll that will allow you to reroll values on the attributes you already have, which is obtained from the B4 treasure dungeon. Of course, you're not guaranteed the scroll on each run by any means, and you only have 4 runs a week. So it will take an unrealistic amount of time to reroll the values on your piercing gear.

    And keep in mind that the reason you'll even be going through all this time and effort is specifically so that you can eventually replace these gear that you spent so much time perfecting, with better legendary gear.

    So you can see how unrealistic it is getting piercing outside of the PvP shop gear. So what else does this leave? The thing I fear most here is the one more option that wasn't in this CBT, which is to P2W for that piercing stat.
  • AexyAexy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 940
    Posts: 28
    Member
    msongy wrote: »
    @Aexy
    Uhh I'm not completely sure what you're trying to say but, despite my complaints, I still think the game is pretty fun. But in Korea, basically the end game currently there are 3 different sets of level 60 legendary gear, stat wise it's pretty much on par with that of the legendary gear from CBT except they have varying on hit and set effects (maybe a little stronger). Getting a specific equipment is not very hard, since you can just pay for a party to carry you.

    Upgrading it perfectly will still take some time due to dungeon limits and mat farming... (This is not even relevant to my post).

    The game itself as a whole, is very good, it has a good foundation below it - the art, combat, pvp, even gearing - despite what I said in the post, is not bad. The point of my post was not to say MS2 is a shiet game and that will die. It was to try and point out some flaws with progression (MY OPINIONS). I personally think the 2nd job skills are great addition to the game and believe that MS2 will be very popular for a long time despite nay-sayers.

    My post was just trying to explain that progression is a little disorganized, it could be better structured - I wasn't saying end-game gear is non-existent or that's impossible to upgrade them. In both the CBT and in KMS I had above average gear (+14 purple gear in CBT, stopped playing the last 5 days) (over 20k weapon dmg in korea). I probably could've been in the .01% gear range for both servers if I spent more time and money but just didn't want to.

    Visually, I can't really say I've seen two of the same kind of characters. Everybody has their own designs, and while the base weapons or equipments are not too varying in the high end - so many people have equip transmogs and/or skins everybody looks pretty unique IMO.

    Thank you for the reply!
    And excuse me for asking a questions that actually was a bit off-topic.
    I somehow felt like seizing the oppurtunity to ask the questions flying around in my head to an experienced player.
    And since the answers satisfied me - it wasn't the worst idea i ever had.
    Got to sleep now. 4 AM already over here,
    good night.
  • iAMAZEuiAMAZEu
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,395
    Posts: 125
    Member
    Completely agree that gear progression was absolutely horrible. The difference between Fire Dragon and Balrog was huge and a big part of the difficulty boost just felt artificial because of the much higher numbers and hitboxes that make no sense. And despite that, the weapon reward from Balrog are barely better than the tradeable purples that many people buy before Fire Dragon. A +12 dagger from Balrog was barely better than a +12 Ikar Morde dagger that I had, and for some reason, the Balrog weapons have a lower gear score.

    And even when I had +12 on my Balrog dagger and almost 5k GS, I still couldn't contribute a fair share to CDev. And this was after practicing a bunch, when I was managing to play with no deaths, getting hit minimal times, and optimizing damage (I consistently got first in total damage in most all purple parties I was in). In the end, it was because I had insufficient piercing, but there was no way I could get the gear from the PvP shop because I'd just get slaughtered by the legendary players.

    So this just leaves getting piercing from normal gear, which is just unrealistic. Piercing, from what I've seen, only comes from accessories and weapons. However, purple accessories are stupidly rare, out of 15 Balrog clears and just as many Fire Dragon clear, I have not seen a single belt or cape. I did get a purple ring and earring, but only one of each. Even if you had some tremendous luck and get the accessories, piercing isn't exactly a common stat, so you will likely have to reroll the bonus attributes until you get piercing (you can only reroll gear that are at least purple). And the more you reroll a single piece of gear, the more expensive it will get, so unless you get crazy lucky multiple times, you will be spending a ton trying to roll piercing.

    And even once you manage to get piercing on a few pieces, the max each piece will have is 4%, which is unlikely, so you can realistically expect less than 2% per piece. So then, you will have to get the scroll that will allow you to reroll values on the attributes you already have, which is obtained from the B4 treasure dungeon. Of course, you're not guaranteed the scroll on each run by any means, and you only have 4 runs a week. So it will take an unrealistic amount of time to reroll the values on your piercing gear.

    And keep in mind that the reason you'll even be going through all this time and effort is specifically so that you can eventually replace these gear that you spent so much time perfecting, with better legendary gear.

    So you can see how unrealistic it is getting piercing outside of the PvP shop gear. So what else does this leave? The thing I fear most here is the one more option that wasn't in this CBT, which is to P2W for that piercing stat.

    Piercing helps, but it's not necessarily needed. I practiced the chaos raid on the 3rd day w/ no pvp gears and did above minimum dmg for the raid. (+11 balrog weapon, green cape/green belt)
  • msongymsongy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,055
    Posts: 19
    Member
    edited 5:51PM August 2, 2018
    @iAMAZEu
    You're not really understanding my arguments, it's not amazing that you hit cDev gear score in 4 days, I was only about a couple hours to a day to behind you. I'll give you guys props for being the first to clear it, but anyone who knew what they're doing probably could've as well given a few days margin.

    Yes for a lot of enthusiasts getting to CBT lvl 50 is about 5~6 hrs, but I'm guessing even some enthusiasts will take about 8 hours on it. The 10~20hr range is for lvl 70 soft cap. My opinion is that it's pretty pointless and repetitive.

    I never said anything about farming everything in a week, that truly would be boring - but as it stands legitimately grinding gemstones takes several months and that's generous even at a die hard level. It's probably much longer for people who can't afford that kind of time. Lumi's take real cash, if you're one of the top 0.01% who trade cash for mesos, all props to you - but I'm speaking of majority. Also, I'm asking for changes of subtlety not massively easy gameplay. Farming gemstones are boring, this is not subjective and they require a massive amount of time.

    I agree just because you've payed for bus doesn't mean you can clear this, but why are you bringing this up? I brought up bus parties because as someone trying to climb up the ladder, they're easier to find than trying to organize a first clear party. It's much more efficient to bus, farm gear and upgrade yellows and then farm chaos raids when you're properly geared. It's not like chaos raids require a massive amount of skill or outplay to clear, it's more of a question of whether you have gear and some experience or not. BTW I admit you guys might be better, but I am good lol.
    DanDK
  • iAMAZEuiAMAZEu
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 2,395
    Posts: 125
    Member
    edited 5:54PM August 2, 2018
    @msongy

    Yes, the grind is real. I can attest to that since I grinded for lvl 5 lumistones and gemstones on kms2. Lumistones took over 6 months from lvl 1 to 5, now it takes about 3 months. It's really a way to differentiate those who have played a long time vs. newcomers.

    When you say lumi's cost real money that is somewhat true. The lumistone you can trade between your alts costs merits, the ones that are character bound come from daily missions. Over time, you can accrue enough free merits to get a hold of the tradable lumistones. The crystal hearts to make skin sockets can also be attained this way. Just takes time. :insert 3 years meme:

    Lastly, the bussing issue has also been a rampant problem in kms2. People really don't want to learn the mechanics and clear for themselves. Complaints are plastered all over the korean forums. My suggestion is to make it so that in order to clear the raid and obtain loot, each party member must do a certain amount of damage to the boss. This is like the infernog raid, where you need to personally deal 50m boss damage, and 2.4 billion total damage as a party to get the SS rank. [The current lvl 60 chaos raids are not easy]
  • msongymsongy
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 1,055
    Posts: 19
    Member
    edited 6:25PM August 2, 2018
    @iAMAZEu

    You are a great player and truly deserving of all your accomplishments if everything you say is true, but I doubt most people and perhaps even a part of you would accept in a motive to re-invest that much amount of time and dulling effort for said progress on NA.

    I can't argue on the morals of bussing, but as it stands currently, I personally would bus over clear parties any day because they are just much more effective in progress. Instead of damage requirement for rewards, I would argue for a much more intuitive progression system (details I can't really outline since this is not my problem to solve) - that way people wouldn't have to rely on more geared people to get them through. Right now, it's either you chaos or you do hard dungeons and the gap between them is so wide.

    This is one of the fundamentals of my argument, the gap between hard dungeons need to be wider (rewards), and the gap between chaos and hard dungs needs to be shorten'd. To compensate for extreme, hardcore fetish players such as yourself - having different levels of chaos dungeons would be better IMO. This would make it so gear progression would be more reliable on self and with other relative players instead of bus parties. And hardcore players can just choose from the hardest chaos dungeons possible.

    Subtlety is still a key in all this, it should be more intuitive climbing up while at the end still being tricky/difficult. Either way, you still bring up some fairly good counter arguments.
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 3,680
    Posts: 258
    Member
    iAMAZEu wrote: »
    Piercing helps, but it's not necessarily needed. I practiced the chaos raid on the 3rd day w/ no pvp gears and did above minimum dmg for the raid. (+11 balrog weapon, green cape/green belt)

    Well then in that case it must be me. Either I'm still doing something wrong with my skill rotations because I was pretty much hitting the fat blob of HP almost the entire time, or thief DPS is just that bad. I was also told that 90+ accuracy was a good amount to have for it and 96 was needed for 100% hit rate, and I only had 82.

    You clearly are very experienced and are very hardcore about this game and know exactly how to progress to CDev, so I'm sure you paid attention to things like piercing and accuracy while progressing through dungeons and at least had more than none of each when you did clear CDev. I only found out about this when it was already way too late. But either way, it wouldn't be fair to hold someone as skilled and experienced as yourself as a standard for everyone else.
  • BluclueBluclue
    MapleStory 2 Rep: 5,190
    Posts: 434
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    iAMAZEu wrote: »
    Piercing helps, but it's not necessarily needed. I practiced the chaos raid on the 3rd day w/ no pvp gears and did above minimum dmg for the raid. (+11 balrog weapon, green cape/green belt)

    Well then in that case it must be me. Either I'm still doing something wrong with my skill rotations because I was pretty much hitting the fat blob of HP almost the entire time, or thief DPS is just that bad. I was also told that 90+ accuracy was a good amount to have for it and 96 was needed for 100% hit rate, and I only had 82.

    You clearly are very experienced and are very hardcore about this game and know exactly how to progress to CDev, so I'm sure you paid attention to things like piercing and accuracy while progressing through dungeons and at least had more than none of each when you did clear CDev. I only found out about this when it was already way too late. But either way, it wouldn't be fair to hold someone as skilled and experienced as yourself as a standard for everyone else.

    Thats true. I didnt even know about the piercing pvp belt/cape and abyss hat till like week 2 of cbt.