Handful of DPM tests & a list of Cunning effects

SmashSenpaiSmashSenpai
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edited 8:01PM August 1, 2018 in Thief
Thief dpm tests on target dummies in the chaos lobby.

My damage shown is mainly for comparison sake. Note that any build involving surprise atk is very challenging to play and is usually the cause of the lower ranking. Every build uses max Vicious Cuts, because everything else pales in comparison. If you already play Thief, these short descriptions should be enough to tell you what the build looks like. If you don't play Thief, these descriptions are likely useless. I can provide links to any build, explanations, etc upon request.

1. 1.74m max deft combatant, haste, kick, mindbreaker, ds. 1 poison vial
2. 1.65m max deft combatant, haste, kick, ds, quickstep (!). 1 poison vial
3. 1.59m max ruthless guile, surprise atk, somersault kick, 3 ds, no haste
4. 1.55m max deft combatant, haste, ruthless guile, min double stab, 1 surprise atk
5. 1.46m max ruthless guile, surprise atk, haste
5. 1.46m max deft combatant, haste, ruthless guile, min double stab, 0 suprise atk
6. 1.44m max ruthless guile, surprise atk, no haste
7. 1.43m max ruthless guile, haste, 1 surprise atk
8. 1.41m max ruthless guile, 1 surprise atk, haste, and deft combatant (7 double stab)
9. 1.39m max deft combatant, haste, max surprise atk, no guile
10. 1.35m max deft combatant, haste, kick, 1 surprise atk, no guile

This is not intended to be a guide for what you should play. Raiding is not the same as fighting an immobile practice dummy.

Completely unrelated notes.

* As for other tests, anything involving stacking poison edge sucks. It's worse than all of these. Even more so in practice.
* Anything involving Blade Dance sucks. If you want to spin2win, play Knight or Zerk.
* Retaliation is the worst skill in the entire game. There is no way to passively boost evasion. Katvan's Horns, the most expensive item in the Black Market provides 3. You start with 80. There is no other equipment in the game that provides evasion that Thief can wear.
* Empowered Blade Dance provides 1 second of 81-99% percentage based evasion. So if you invest in a bunch of lousy skills, you can get a refund on the mp you spent, a 12 second atk buff, and 6 evasion. Not 6% mind you. Six.
* Thief doesn't know how to do math. If my Vicious Cuts (310%) deals 25k damage, Somersault Kick (382%) will do 40k damage, and proc'd Surprise Attack (584%) deals 20k damage.

Cunning effects since this is documented nowhere. All these skills remove your Cunning buff upon use.

Poison Edge
Deals roughly 20% poison damage each second for 13 seconds for each stack. Stacks up to 5 times. Higher levels increases the poison damage slightly, but damage range makes it annoying to test. 90% mastery wen? Also, since Thief doesn't give a crap about numbers in their skill description, 20% is in reference to the damage dealt by Poison Edge. So if Poison Edge deals 100 damage, then the poison will tick for about 20.

Surprise Attack
Increases the range of the attack. You swing your dagger horizontally instead of vertically. Like wow... you really needed to be empowered to do that?

Blade Dance
Grants a 1 second 81%-99% evasion buff. +2% per skill level. Also staggers enemies.

Somersault Kick
Stuns for 1 second. Also, this is unrelated to being empowered, but the jump/speed debuff lasts for 5 seconds.

Mesosguard "Plus"
Wow, it's actually in the skill description! BUT, they left one detail out: Makes the skill cost 0 mesos AND increases duration of the buff to 12 seconds (normally 4 seconds). 777 mesos is already cheaper than a potion! So they provided the least important part of the empowered effect.

Vicious Cuts
Deals DOUBLE DAMAGE. This is the good one.

Edit: Added Mesosguard Plus' additional cunning effect.
bolder_tasteCathie

Comments

  • imprdlimprdl
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    I thought Poison Edge stacks doesn't work properly in CB2?
  • bolder_tastebolder_taste
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    This is really useful, and thank you so much for compiling this for us all!
  • SmashSenpaiSmashSenpai
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    edited 8:42PM August 1, 2018
    imprdl wrote: »
    I thought Poison Edge stacks doesn't work properly in CB2?

    1 stack of Poison edge deals about 800 damage for me. 2 stacks deals about 1600.. etc etc. 5 stacks deals about 4000. The damage scales correctly.

    To my understanding, the "bug" that people are talking about is...

    Sometimes, RARELY, ALMOST NEVER... Using Poison Edge won't consume your Cunning buff. So if you use all 5 hits of Poison Edge, you can get 5 stacks of poison, because you had Cunning the whole time. I believe the original effect never consumed the Cunning buff.

    Why is it a "bug"?

    Because nowhere in any of the skill descriptions involving cunning EXCEPT MESOSGUARD PLUS, does it say that Cunning is removed after using the skill. Therefore, it would be a safe assumption that only Mesosguard Plus removes the cunning buff. This is not the case. Cunning is always consumed after every skill that can be empowered. We can't know for sure if this is intended

    So is it a bug or not?

    Either the skill description gets updated to the correct effect.
    - or -
    The "bug" is fixed and Thief gets to keep using empowered skills one after another while Cunning is active.

    Obviously, most players prefer the second result, so they keep calling it a bug in hopes that it gets "fixed". To be honest, Thief does need the buff.

    edit: there are people who have reported getting 5 stacks from a single poison edge, but I could never reproduce this. I could only ever reproduce the 5 hit combo stacking twice.
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    I didn't see it mentioned but Mesoguard also has a different effect with cunning, aside from the extended duration. It becomes more of an offensive buff, I don't know the exact percent but I think the attack boost was similar to the attack boost given by haste, maybe a little higher. And the high damage reduction just changes to a physical resistance %, which isn't nearly as high as the original damage reduction %.
    bolder_taste
  • JuanSadutJuanSadut
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    Thief dpm tests on target dummies in the chaos lobby.

    My damage shown is mainly for comparison sake. Note that any build involving surprise atk is very challenging to play and is usually the cause of the lower ranking. Every build uses max Vicious Cuts, because everything else pales in comparison. If you already play Thief, these short descriptions should be enough to tell you what the build looks like. If you don't play Thief, these descriptions are likely useless. I can provide links to any build, explanations, etc upon request.

    1. 1.74m max deft combatant, haste, kick, mindbreaker, ds. 1 poison vial
    2. 1.65m max deft combatant, haste, kick, ds, quickstep (!). 1 poison vial
    3. 1.59m max ruthless guile, surprise atk, somersault kick, 3 ds, no haste
    4. 1.55m max deft combatant, haste, ruthless guile, min double stab, 1 surprise atk
    5. 1.46m max ruthless guile, surprise atk, haste
    5. 1.46m max deft combatant, haste, ruthless guile, min double stab, 0 suprise atk
    6. 1.44m max ruthless guile, surprise atk, no haste
    7. 1.43m max ruthless guile, haste, 1 surprise atk
    8. 1.41m max ruthless guile, 1 surprise atk, haste, and deft combatant (7 double stab)
    9. 1.39m max deft combatant, haste, max surprise atk, no guile
    10. 1.35m max deft combatant, haste, kick, 1 surprise atk, no guile

    This is not intended to be a guide for what you should play. Raiding is not the same as fighting an immobile practice dummy.

    Completely unrelated notes.

    * As for other tests, anything involving stacking poison edge sucks. It's worse than all of these. Even more so in practice.
    * Anything involving Blade Dance sucks. If you want to spin2win, play Knight or Zerk.
    * Retaliation is the worst skill in the entire game. There is no way to passively boost evasion. Katvan's Horns, the most expensive item in the Black Market provides 3. You start with 80. There is no other equipment in the game that provides evasion that Thief can wear.
    * Empowered Blade Dance provides 1 second of 81-99% percentage based evasion. So if you invest in a bunch of lousy skills, you can get a refund on the mp you spent, a 12 second atk buff, and 6 evasion. Not 6% mind you. Six.
    * Thief doesn't know how to do math. If my Vicious Cuts (310%) deals 25k damage, Somersault Kick (382%) will do 40k damage, and proc'd Surprise Attack (584%) deals 20k damage.

    Cunning effects since this is documented nowhere. All these skills remove your Cunning buff upon use.

    Poison Edge
    Deals roughly 20% poison damage each second for 13 seconds for each stack. Stacks up to 5 times. Higher levels increases the poison damage slightly, but damage range makes it annoying to test. 90% mastery wen? Also, since Thief doesn't give a crap about numbers in their skill description, 20% is in reference to the damage dealt by Poison Edge. So if Poison Edge deals 100 damage, then the poison will tick for about 20.

    Surprise Attack
    Increases the range of the attack. You swing your dagger horizontally instead of vertically. Like wow... you really needed to be empowered to do that?

    Blade Dance
    Grants a 1 second 81%-99% evasion buff. +2% per skill level. Also staggers enemies.

    Somersault Kick
    Stuns for 1 second. Also, this is unrelated to being empowered, but the jump/speed debuff lasts for 5 seconds.

    Mesosguard "Plus"
    Wow, it's actually in the skill description! BUT, they left one detail out: Makes the skill cost 0 mesos AND increases duration of the buff to 12 seconds (normally 4 seconds). 777 mesos is already cheaper than a potion! So they provided the least important part of the empowered effect.

    Vicious Cuts
    Deals DOUBLE DAMAGE. This is the good one.

    Edit: Added Mesosguard Plus' additional cunning effect.

    What was you GS on this tests?
  • SmashSenpaiSmashSenpai
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    JuanSadut wrote: »
    It was 2k.

    PS: You shouldn't quote my wall of text. It forces users to scroll past something they have already recently read. I will get notified even if you just comment.
  • WizpiggleWizpiggle
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    I'm pretty sure the evasion of retaliation goes up per level?
    I'm also sure I've gotten evasion on gear rolls.
  • SmashSenpaiSmashSenpai
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    Wizpiggle wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the evasion of retaliation goes up per level?
    I'm also sure I've gotten evasion on gear rolls.
    Yes, Retaliation can give you evasion but what's the point if you can't evade anything to begin with?
    Yes, random gear rolls can give evasion.
    None of these factors provide a noticeable amount of evasion to improve Thief's survivability in raids.
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    You'd need a lot of evasion from gear to make any noticeable difference, so you would likely have to re-roll a lot of your gear to get it.
    It's not cheap to re-roll gear and there are much more important stats that you should be rolling for over evasion (piercing/accuracy).
  • SixaxisSixaxis
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    You'd need a lot of evasion from gear to make any noticeable difference, so you would likely have to re-roll a lot of your gear to get it.
    It's not cheap to re-roll gear and there are much more important stats that you should be rolling for over evasion (piercing/accuracy).

    ^This. The Hat, Top Armor, Bottom Armor, Gloves, and Shoes can all have EVA stat'd onto them. The maximum roll for an EVA stat on a Lv50 Purple is 6. So you could get up to 30 from your Armor, and then the 15 from Lv55 Retaliation passive. Unsure how hit-chance is calculated, but since we all get 80 base EVA, that's a 56.25% increase. It's already a pain in the A just to get 4 EVA on the gears, so who knows how many you'd have to drop and re-roll to actually get 5 ~ 6. Then ontop of that, it doesn't seem worth it considering the damage-based stats you could get instead, and Retaliation could always be triggered by using Cunning Blade Dance right before receiving an attack.

    Doesn't look like the DEX stat gives Accuracy anymore though and it's only achievable from Bonus Attributes on gears, so with a lot of funding, maybe this could be useful in PvP? I had like +13 EVA and found that people missed a lot when I played Thief in Arena, so I could only imagine how annoying it'd be to hit someone with 25 ~ 30.
    bolder_tasteWattz
  • ilovemaplestory2_01ilovemaplestory2_01
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    imprdl wrote: »
    I thought Poison Edge stacks doesn't work properly in CB2?
    To my understanding, the "bug" that people are talking about is...

    Sometimes, RARELY, ALMOST NEVER... Using Poison Edge won't consume your Cunning buff.

    the "bug" is that during CBT2, poison edge stacks worked, but not how they're supposed to.

    CBT1: you use poison edge and land all 5 hits on your target, which applies 5 poison edge stacks on them.

    CBT2: you use poison edge and land all 5 hits on your target, however it only applies 1 poison edge stack.

    i reached out to one of the nexon employees on twitter and they said that it would be fixed during CBT2 if more issues appeared, but that didn't happen.

    i just hope this bug is gone before launch.

    bolder_taste
  • WattzWattz
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    Do builds which make use of vicious, ruthless, & poison vial / edge always involve using the full 5-hit edge combo (and would the way this bug is resolved affect that)? Not sure if I’m misunderstanding poison edge but wouldn’t applying the DoT with a single hit conserve SP for more vicious cuts (and depending on the 2 DoT durations, maybe give you extra time to take advantage of ruthless—with vicious—before having to reapply the poisons)?
  • SmashSenpaiSmashSenpai
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    Wattz wrote: »
    There were 0 builds involving poison edge that made it to top 10. Those that did use poison edge did not employ the 5-hit edge combo since it could not apply 5 stacks of poison consistently. It was very annoying to restart the timer every time poison edge failed to proc, so I tested around it. Each test involved 2 minutes of fighting, then dividing by 2 to get an average. Even factoring out the time lost from stacking the poisons (usually around 30 seconds), poison edge stacking still lost. Of course in practice, when you can't be attacking a boss non-stop, poison edge could win out since the DoT will still be ticking while you are out of combat. However, being out of combat usually means that you will lose the 5 stacks of poison, so it will probably not work out.

    Back to your question, the rotation used was:

    Step 1: Kick > Vial > (Double Stab until Cunning > Poison Edge) repeat until 5 stacks. Always use Kick every 6 seconds. Always use vial every 10 seconds. Never use Mindbreaker. When you get 5 stacks of poison edge, go to step 2.

    Step 2: After 5 stacks of Edge, if Kick and mindbreaker is off CD and Poison Vial is ticking, hold down vicious cuts. Otherwise, prioritize using vial into mindbreaker if poison is at 1 second remaining, kick into mindbreaker if kick is off cd, or just mindbreaker to get sp back for vicious cuts. When Poison Edge cd hits 6 seconds, go to Step 3.

    Step 3: 6 seconds is arbitrarily chosen, it could be lower if I wanted to gamble. Attempt to regain cunning by holding down double stab. When cunning procs, immediately poison edge to refresh the 12 seconds of poison, repeat step 2.

    Some builds had Lv1 or Lv10 Cunning Tactics (buff to get Cunning+mp). This buff was used to get 5 stacks of poison edge sooner or maintain those 5 stacks. If the build included Cunning Tactics, it was used in place of double stab. This allowed for more time spent using Vicious Cuts.

    Notably, the best builds all had maxed Somersault Kick, indicating that more kicks > more poison.

    Notably, more levels of double stab helps poison edge builds more than haste.

    Haste with Vicious Cuts was better than 2 stacks of Ruthless Guile with Haste and double stab, even though Haste with Vicious Cuts used Double Stab over 50% of the time.

    Many poison tests flubbed because of bad luck proccing Double Stab. In this event, I retested it. It feels like lv10 double stab procs cunning roughly once every 3 uses. If a double stab session lasts beyond 6 uses, I considered ending the test right then and there for bad luck. Lv3 double stab procs cunning roughly once every 6 uses. These tests were not fun.

    Note: when stacking Poison Edge, I never used Surprise Atk in the build, as sustained poison deals more damage than SA ever will.
    Wattzimprdl
  • imprdlimprdl
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    Wattz wrote: »

    Many poison tests flubbed because of bad luck proccing Double Stab. In this event, I retested it. It feels like lv10 double stab procs cunning roughly once every 3 uses. If a double stab session lasts beyond 6 uses, I considered ending the test right then and there for bad luck. Lv3 double stab procs cunning roughly once every 6 uses. These tests were not fun.

    Note: when stacking Poison Edge, I never used Surprise Atk in the build, as sustained poison deals more damage than SA ever will.

    For a poison edge build, would you recommend maxing Cunning or maxing Double Stab?

  • SmashSenpaiSmashSenpai
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    imprdl wrote: »
    tl;dr Double Stab.

    Something you can use twice per second is going to get far more value per SP than something that gets used once every 14 seconds. Speaking of 14 seconds, it almost seems intentional that you cannot re-use it before Poison Edge would run out. The cooldown is JUST long enough to prevent this from happening. What this means is that Lv10 Cunning Tactics can be used once every 2 Poison Edges and Lv1 Cunning Tactics can be used... also once every 2 Poison Edges. The timing is tighter since you only have 1 second of leeway, but it does suck that you can't maintain 5 stacks without relying on double stab.