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[Feedback] Level Progression

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  • CurtCurt
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,330
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    ChillBear wrote: »

    You do realise when MS2 was released in Korea it's progression system wasn't like this and reliant on an epic quest system? But they've gone the way of so many other Korean MMOs and turned it into a dungeon crawler, hurtling us into end game ASAP and neglecting the rest of the game. If it were a grindfest, with dungeons being an optional method of gathering XP/loot, it would be far more enjoyable.

    The game needs to be a hardcore grindfest or its longevity will suffer.
    Grindfest games are kind of dying in the west, imo. Stuff like MOBAs/Battle Royales/Shooters are on top. Turning this game into a 2005 grindfest isnt going to do anything but make people bored of grinding eventually before they reach the level cap, my speculation.

    Going back on what you said, taking weeks to go through the tutorial of this game (levels 1-50 for now, levels 1-70 in the future) shouldn't be a thing in current year when there's competition in the industry ran by better companies, honestly.

    Need I remind everyone, this isn't MapleStory 1. Functions completely different from it.

    I feel everyone is correct on the topic of giving more options for EXP to reach the level cap, make dungeons/side quests/exploration quests/etc give better EXP, and make them an option for players who don't want to do the epic quest line. They're well designed, and should be an option to everyone.

    But hear me out, not everyone wants to spend weeks doing this. Go figure. Balance it out so everyone can get a piece of the pie. People who want to quest, can quest, people who want to grind for weeks can do that.
    CodeVeinCrownedManeNorthboundVerlo
  • OhzmaOhzma
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 745
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    I think the level progression is great, was very excited about the changes when I read the Patch Notes! I understand people's frustrations with enemies having too much hp, maybe instead of just giving them so much hp you could give them other types of bonuses: some enemies could have a higher resistance to stagger, perhaps as hp decreases some become enraged and get a sort of boost, some have a chance to crit, others increased damage, others increased move/attack speed... Could be pretty creative and interesting! Even some where they'd doom you and you'd die if they aren't killed on time or that they could hitstun you liek some abilities we have are able to do, cool interactions like that. From my experience they always attack so slow I sometimes have to let them hit me or else they never do anything and it becomes pretty repetitive.
    bolder_tasteAgent_Dragonfury
  • JetUppercutJetUppercut
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 5,535
    Posts: 299
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    I like the changes, but they're not perfect. A huge step in the right direction, though.
    I think the World Quests as they are, need to be given the same scaling exp as Exploration Goals and Chest openings. Mobs need to give the same EXP as a gathering node being harvest by a player of that mob level and World Bosses/Dungeons etc. need to be given a big boost in EXP payout as well. As it is, though, the alternative leveling experience is massively improved. I actually got to 50 before I finished the Epic Quest, something which you would have struggled to do before without paying for AFK tickets. I'm not sure how Fishing and Performing EXP scales, but a boost there probably wouldn't hurt either.
    Leveling is still quite fast if you know what you're doing, I took my time on purpose and still hit 50 in 3 days, which is about the same amount of time it took me to hit 50 in CBT1 just I had to finish the Epic Quest to do it last time.

    Not really sure what the complaints are about honestly, I basically followed only the Epic Quest from 1~40 and only doing the mini-games, exploration goals, side quests and chest openings in the maps that are in story zones I didn't have to stop to grind once. For someone rushing this change barely adds an extra hour or two to the total time to level. After 40 I just went around and started doing my own thing and managed to hit 50 without the Epic Quest. If they added some information about exploration goals at the start and scaled the World Quest EXP properly I think the complaints would stop.
    bolder_tasteVerloAgent_DragonfuryLockeExile
  • TylerTheDragonTylerTheDragon
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,525
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    I'm gonna leave some feedback here because I see a LOT of posts complaining about leveling being too slow, and I'm gonna try and give insight on why, in my opinion, that's the case.

    People are obviously at a crossroads when it comes to leveling in this game: They want to level as quickly as possible to reach content that actually matters, and people that want to take their time and enjoy the game at their own pace, while slowly making strides towards maximum level. There's a glaring issue between both of these and that is Nobody wants to do the story. The story is a slow slog of going quest to quest, sometimes running through a dungeon (with now, as a Thief this time, I'm struggling to find enjoyment in some of them, I may run through a second character and take notes in detail to find what I liked/disliked about the story as a whole, because there's a lot that I can't remember off the top of my head from purely memory alone).

    The epic story has two issues that I can call out immediately from memory that stand out to me:
    1) The story feels like the only way to actually level up and make progress through the game at any pace that feels anything resembling how you make us feel like we should be leveling. Locking behind stat points and skill points means that skipping the epic quest is an immediate disadvantage to any play that levels otherwise, meaning that your epic quest becomes a slog, especially on multiple characters. If I want to play every class to 50 (like I plan to at some point), then I'm going to find the epic quest more and more irritating to play through and the fact it's the only feesable way to level up makes it even worse, because taking any other option takes 10x the time with 10x less rewards.

    2) The epic quest falls into the trap of having everything pre-50 not matter. Do you want players to be 50 as soon as possible to reach the mid-game (as I'm hearing 99 is the actual max on full release, or at least on the Korean version) or do you want people to explore the pre-50 content that you have to offer that is actually level-specific. Doing a level 10 sidequest at 50 is fun for the completion aspect, as I'm someone who will look forward to trying to clear everything possible on one character, but is the average playerbase going to see a point in going back to talking to an NPC for a fetch quest or a gathering quest where I need to fight level 5 slimes? People have said this before in the thread and I'll say it again: people are finding it too slow because you're letting them. People may want to rush to midgame but is that the precident you want to set? If so then making CBT1's changes react to you making things only a bit slower doesn't solve the issue.

    People like me who found issues in pacing in CBT1 was because the story felt like a rush to level 50 where I felt I could actually make my own decisions and go out and do things. I feel into a trap in CBT1 where I felt that it was completely and utterly necessary to go through these quests as quickly as possible, because it was the only feesable way to level, there never felt like there was a "break" in the story (Henesys is in danger so I'm not going to feel like fishing for 6 hours unless I need to do something) and that the rewards felt too impactful to those who weren't doing them. We wanted it slower mainly so players had more options, we wanted it slower because it felt like a rush to max level that will be done in 10 hours max if someone isn't wandering off doing other things. There needs to be an established method to the madness by either appeasing and revering the CBT1 changes we brought up or actually making the leveling slower and also making it feel better when doing the epic quest.

    I'm not going to rant on too long because, well, I'm having a hard time staying awake, but there needs to be a big change on release on how you're going to go about handing the epic quest: either make it actually optional/rewarding to play through outside of the actual rewards or make it faster so I don't have to slog through it with 8 different characters and not enjoy it every single time.
    CodeVeinbolder_tasteChizubagaAgent_Dragonfury
  • HoIyHoIy
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 4,220
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    If the leveling progression stays this way this game won’t last past 6 months.

    Making things more tedious to do is not good game design. I can’t imagine why these people want slower pace leveling because they don’t have their own self control to stop if the pace is too fast for them.

    I’m down for more content that would require me to do more to progress but to cap me to force myself to do mundane things just to get to another boring quest to cap is just lazy.

    If people want to grind like the old days then let them experience that past 50. Don’t ruin the experience of new players. There’s a reason why every modern game drop this game design. Don’t let a small minority destroy yet another game.

    I’m trying so hard to understand why someone would want to force players to do tedious task longer but I’ve yet to see a reason past “I don’t like being rush” which is such an insane and selfish logic. If you don’t want to be rush just don’t rush. If you want to enjoy the content slowly no one is stopping you. Let me people who actually want to progress and play get to where they want to be.

    3 days and the queue for everything in the west coast is dead. Chat is spamming about slimes or asking how they can level because they are stuck. Don’t be like blade and soul and make getting to late game a task because you will end up with a game that’s bleeding players because you can’t get new players after the initial hype.
    CodeVeinHumbleSubglacious
  • GahnoGahno
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 380
    Posts: 14
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    edited 4:08AM July 22, 2018
    GRINDING LEVELLING
    I think like a lot mentioned it would be nice to have more options to level. For guys who just love killing mobs and seeing the crits and damage like Maplestory 2D. I think maybe you should add repeatable quest boards that give you good EXP as you kill more and more mobs, can pick up right next to the mob and get good EXP. for the guys who love to grind and kill mobs.

    QUESTING LEVELLING
    The World Quest seem to be a sub or secondary option to the Epic Quest so I think the exp doesn't need to be too much. But it feels like a task to find these quest when you require that extra exp. As they are so randomly placed with no real connection. Might be a good idea to maybe change these to daily quest. So maybe players who are in a certain area, don't need to run around finding quest when they relog the next day. Can continue in that certain area. Or design it so the questing flows or connects to one another.

    DUNGEON LEVELLING
    Like my post in the dungeon subform, I think the EXP reward should be increased. But I think the design for dungeons weren't meant for levelling as there is a daily weekly cap. So regardless it is more about getting loot than levelling. But the reward should be increased to balance out to give some alternative options than just questing and grinding mobs.

    ALTERNATIVE IDEAS
    I think it might be a good idea to create random events or things that happen at certain areas. Like boss spawns or some form of event that brings the world together to work together and make it feel alive. Something that rewards good exp for working together or enhances the reward gained for the other stuffs. The random events like DANCE / SPRING BEACH are more like individual challenges than a team effort and it is instanced based so you jump in jump out. Doesn't give you the feel of seeing a crowd of players running to a certain point. or crowding a certain area. Feels different.
    CodeVeinbolder_taste
  • PhaneinPhanein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 410
    Posts: 2
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    Level progression is good, but... boy, i literally spent 2-3 hours for LV 47. Once you hit that level, you'll probably have to do a lot of Side quests that aren't on your level range, and they give you 1,50% EXP. There are really few quests from LV 45-47, and most of them includes killing a world boss that spawns at X hour and most of people won't care to hunt.
    I really got tired of doing LV35-40 sidequests. Luckily, event minigames gives a lot of EXP.
    Subglacious
  • TooFab4UTooFab4U
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 215
    Posts: 2
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    edited 5:06AM July 22, 2018
    The main story is still a slog to get through, but it's clearly the most efficient way to level, and is also essential if you want additional stat points.

    World quests give extremely low exp and rewards, despite taking a long time to clear, there's basically no point in doing them.
    Grinding is probably quicker than World quests, but the exp is still too low for it to matter.
    Dungeons give barely any exp, and i'm noticing these problems even from level 10-20.
    Minigames should be brought back to CBT1 levels of exp, right now the exp seems quite pitiful and considering that's the main incentive to doing them it's a shame that these have been nerfed.

    In the grand scheme of things, the progression needs to be more balanced. Buff World Quest exp, Grinding, Dungeons and Minigames so that there's incentives elsewhere rather than solely the main story. There'd be less problems with progression considering the Main story exp nerf if the exp was spread more evenly elsewhere. Make World Quests give 80% of the exp that a MSQ at that level would give. Buff Monster Exp to levels that would incentivise grinding on a map.
    Buff minigame exp so that there's more incentive to participating in them. Right now, I can see that BR gives a good portion of exp (though it doesn't actually give any), why is this not applied to minigames as well, or for that matter, the rest of the content you have.
    CodeVein
  • VerloVerlo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,860
    Posts: 173
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    edited 6:15AM July 22, 2018
    I will say it again as I said for CBT 1 feedback.

    REMOVE AP and SP gains from epic questlines and tie them to leveling/navigator milestones instead. That way people dont feel forced to do the story missions.

    Correspondingly the Exp from World Quest/Exploration Goals/Dungeons/Life Skills/Mob Grinding need to be increased and scaled according to player level to favour a mixed bag of play so you can reach 50 across all these activities + epic questline.

    I also think world bosses need more incentive with the rewards. They take way too long to kill and they just aren't attracting many players.

    Maybe try adding some sort of events as well that can happen in maps on a cycle so people can farm rewards from these as another alternative (e.g. public dynamic events in gw2)
    PsYDaniCodeVeinTylerTheDragon
  • paipanloverpaipanlover
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,660
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    I still think that the overall level progression is to fast. I reached lvl 50 today, but I was lvl 50 before I finished the epic questline. I know that the game wont end at lvl 50, but lvl 99, as far as we know. For me, there was no difference between cbt1 and cbt2. Its just to fast for ME. I would lower the exp for the epic quest by 50%, but I would double, if not triple, the exp for world quests, mobs and raids. Mini games seems fine for me. About 20% at 'dance dance stop' at every level, if you make it to the end.

    I think one problem is, that the younger generation of players grow up and get everything on demand. Music, movies, tv series.... everything. And this generation also think so about this game too, maybe. Geting to max level asap, for almost no effort.
    DalsiaTamakiSakuraChizubaga
  • DalsiaDalsia
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    I think the people who are saying leveling is too fast are worried that the game will die quickly if everybody reaches max level within a week because they'll be able to blow through all the seemingly not-that-interesting content, and then quit the game. If everything in this game can be experienced in 1 month then what is the draw to keep players coming back?
    TylerTheDragonLockeExile
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
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    edited 3:15PM July 22, 2018
    I still think that the overall level progression is to fast. I reached lvl 50 today, but I was lvl 50 before I finished the epic questline. I know that the game wont end at lvl 50, but lvl 99, as far as we know. For me, there was no difference between cbt1 and cbt2. Its just to fast for ME. I would lower the exp for the epic quest by 50%, but I would double, if not triple, the exp for world quests, mobs and raids. Mini games seems fine for me. About 20% at 'dance dance stop' at every level, if you make it to the end.

    I think one problem is, that the younger generation of players grow up and get everything on demand. Music, movies, tv series.... everything. And this generation also think so about this game too, maybe. Geting to max level asap, for almost no effort.

    Don't even start with that "this generation, my generation" nonsense. Most people interested in this game are coming from other games that require a lot of time/effort to get anywhere. I'm coming from a hardcore raiding guild in FFXIV, many others are coming from a similar background so you're already off base. The max level of KMS2 is 99 and last time I checked no one has reached it yet. Either keep our progression like KMS2 or make ours faster than KMS2, there is no reason why our version should be slower than KMS2.

    Dalsia wrote: »
    I think the people who are saying leveling is too fast are worried that the game will die quickly if everybody reaches max level within a week because they'll be able to blow through all the seemingly not-that-interesting content, and then quit the game. If everything in this game can be experienced in 1 month then what is the draw to keep players coming back?

    The fact that there is more to this game than just it's endgame is what keeps players coming back. People keep forgetting the social aspects of this game are just as important as the MMO aspects. The fact that Mabinogi is still making them profit after all of this time, shows that casual players enjoy social activities.
    HoIy
  • Littleman268Littleman268
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 590
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    I never got to play in CBT1 so I can't compare the leveling speed to that, but I feel that getting to 20 alone is a bit of a chore. The first 10 levels are handed to me just getting to Tria then all of a sudden it turns into a bit of a slog. I'm almost okay with this, except for the fact that monster HP scales really hard. Like, if level 10 enemies have ~800hp, level 14 will have 4000, and level 17 will have 9000, meanwhile, my damage at those levels has only gone from 100 to 200 to 300, respectively. I was having the most fun when I was easily dispatching small hordes of enemies, but it as I'm going along in levels it repeatedly and quickly gets to the point where I'm just taking my highest DPS move as a Berserker and simply holding the keybind until they die, occasionally dodging a powerful attack. Now, I'm not against there being the occasional beefy mob that can take a hit, but it shouldn't feel like they ALL can take a beating because I'm only their level.

    Mind, it gets better as I unlock more skills. The first 20 levels are rough because of the lack of combat options. My first few attacks as a berserker all come across as some variant of "swing like mad" DPS maneuvers, and the closest I've got to a nuke is a life steal that does so-so damage. It wasn't until I got that big earthshatter skill that damage output really picked up, though like level mobs still tend to be a little durable, at least now I can mix up my fighting style a bit.

    CodeVeinVerlo
  • HoIyHoIy
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 4,220
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    edited 7:45PM July 22, 2018
    So the new generation have to suffer because people are stuck in bad game design from 18 years ago?

    The standard is a lot higher in the past. People can see lazy game design from a mile away. This has nothing to do with ranting about how back in your day blah blah blah.

    I grew up playing maplestory1,wow, runescape you name it. Even though those times were great the design itself only work with the context of the situation of the past.

    Just because you enjoy doing repetitive task longer doesn’t make you more of a veteran or a tougher player. Get rid of that ego where you think the side that disagree with you just own things handed to them because that such a bull arguement.

    Leveling right Now is not fun. I don’t think anyone can argue that it’s fun. Yet most people want this un-fun experience to last longer because back in early 2000 people were clicking one button for two years to get to max level.

    Even the devs know it’s not fun. They remove all the fun content from leveling. They remove all the PQ, JQ that already existed for a reason. Now they want to randomly make leveling tedious even though they remove all the fun part of leveling in ms2. That’s the real issue. Please start bringing up real reason to oppose to fast leveling instead of random assumptions and using your own lack of self control as justification.
    CurtCodeVeinSubglacious
  • TamakiSakuraTamakiSakura
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 6,985
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    The people who want slower leveling are the same people who want the return of PQ and other fun leveling methods.
    DalsiaVerloLockeExile
  • solartech0solartech0
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 760
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    I think that leveling outside of the epic quest is quite slow; since I do not enjoy the epic quest (and would CERTAINLY not like to do it on several characters), leveling alts seems like it will be very tough or unfun (or both).
    CodeVein
  • LipringsLiprings
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 550
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    IMO Leveling is way too fast.
    It took over 2 years for the first person to hit max level in maplestory 1.
    I got level 46 by just levling up my crafts and and way behind on the main story line and now have to grind it out to finish it.
    What is the point in hitting max level in 1 day, you don't really feel like you earn it.
    The game devs made side quests,items,gear, features that may never be seen or touched because of the extremely fast progression.
    I assumed because it was the beta that you wanted everyone to be able to rip through the lower levels and experience end game and things like that.
    But as a long time fan of maplestory it wasn't always about the end game, it was about grinding, making friends, and exploring a gigantic world that seemed so intimidating.

    Thanks
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
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    edited 12:52AM July 23, 2018
    The people who want slower leveling are the same people who want the return of PQ and other fun leveling methods.

    We can have fast leveling and PQ's/other fun leveling methods. There is no reason why we can't have both.

    Liprings wrote: »
    IMO Leveling is way too fast.
    It took over 2 years for the first person to hit max level in maplestory 1.
    I got level 46 by just levling up my crafts and and way behind on the main story line and now have to grind it out to finish it.
    What is the point in hitting max level in 1 day, you don't really feel like you earn it.
    The game devs made side quests,items,gear, features that may never be seen or touched because of the extremely fast progression.
    I assumed because it was the beta that you wanted everyone to be able to rip through the lower levels and experience end game and things like that.
    But as a long time fan of maplestory it wasn't always about the end game, it was about grinding, making friends, and exploring a gigantic world that seemed so intimidating.

    Thanks

    I love Maplestory 1, I have fond memories of finally getting my Ilbi stars for my Nightlord and grinding PQ's all day long in order to level. What you and everyone else who keeps being nostalgic about MS1 need to realize is that Maplestory 2 is a different game.
  • SPACEBOY_SPACEBOY_
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 925
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    Mobs have too much health. I'm aware that in the beta a lot of us will have pretty bad gear but even once I've hit 50 and gotten 2k gear score going back to complete stars I still think mobs are too tanky.
    CodeVeinVerlo
  • GarlicBreadGarlicBread
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,405
    Posts: 202
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    the fight between hard difficulty/low exp rates vs fair difficulty/fair exp rates...has begun...which side will win? findout on the next episode of dragon ball z.
    I'm on the fair side because it's more fun that way.
    CodeVeinVerlo
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