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[Feedback] Level Progression

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  • CintaBRCintaBR
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 470
    Posts: 5
    Member
    edited 4:32AM July 20, 2018
    Good morning, I would like to inform you of my dissatisfaction with the amount of experience received by the missions in the history of the game. In the first closed beta doing all the missions in history it was possible to reach the maximum level, but in the current closed beta, at least three times, it was necessary to kill monsters along the map to reach the level necessary for the next mission in history . I noticed that there are secondary missions that did not have before, but I realized that some of them need to kill elites, but alone it is complicated, and most of the other players apparently are already level up, so basically it has to be done solo and it takes a long time, and the rewards are also not attractive. I suggest returning the amount of experience offered in missions in story mode, or increasing the amount obtained by killing a group of monsters with experience multipliers, or even increasing the amount of experience awarded, and the quality of the loot of the secondary missions. As it is, I felt the game a little tiresome having to stop doing the missions of the story to get the necessary level to return to do the missions.
    HumbleXenostarsGarlicBreadCodeVeinVerloSubglacious
  • CintaBRCintaBR
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 470
    Posts: 5
    Member
    Good morning, I would like to inform you of my dissatisfaction with the amount of experience received by the missions in the history of the game. In the first closed beta doing all the missions in history it was possible to reach the maximum level, but in the current closed beta, at least three times, it was necessary to kill monsters along the map to reach the level necessary for the next mission in history . I noticed that there are secondary missions that did not have before, but I realized that some of them need to kill elites, but alone it is complicated, and most of the other players apparently are already level up, so basically it has to be done solo and it takes a long time, and the rewards are also not attractive. I suggest returning the amount of experience offered in missions in story mode, or increasing the amount obtained by killing a group of monsters with experience multipliers, or even increasing the amount of experience awarded, and the quality of the loot of the secondary missions. As it is, I felt the game a little tiresome having to stop doing the missions of the story to get the necessary level to return to do the missions.
    CodeVein
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
    Posts: 27
    Member
    DanDK wrote: »
    I'd just like to add some elaboration to my post from yesterday as it might've come across a bit contradictory, I just felt I had to write something against the many complaints about slow progress. I've been thinking a bit more about it and am trying to understand people's reasoning.

    Let me start by adding a list of things you can do in the game pre50 and post50.

    Pre-50:
    Main quest
    World quests
    Exploration
    Minigame events
    World maps/events
    Dungeons
    Combat skills
    Life Skills
    Housing
    Fishing
    Music
    Cosmetics
    Socializing
    Arcade

    Post50:
    PvP
    Gear hunting
    Raids
    Pet Taming (final?)


    Let me also remind everyone that people generally agree that this is a social game, no matter their stance on levelling.

    During my time on the forums I generally see three categories of people.
    The first group would be some sort of social purists that mainly care about the pre50 aspects and don't care at all whether levelling is slow or fast because they have no interest in end game content. They don't really matter in the levelling debate context, but they do remind us that the game is mainly designed for social activities.

    The second group is the one I'd classify myself as, enjoying both the social stuff at my own pace but also looking forward to progress at end game eventually. For instance, during both CBT1 and CBT2, I spent many hours just enjoying the various content with friends and got about 5-10 levels a day, which is more than fast enough for me given what you can do. To us, incredibly fast levelling is a setback because it devalues the experience of every other activity and makes each success relatively less rewarding, as well as feeling a need to rush along to avoid falling behind.

    Finally, we have people very vocal about finding it too slow that they have to play an entire day to reach level 50. The only reason I can fathom for this is that they have no interest in the pre50 activities but only enjoy the post50 activities, hence rushing past content. These people want fast levelling so they don't have to bother.

    Now, as I mentioned in my previous post, many pre50 activities are badly designed which is in defence of the third group, but there are also many good social activities and they do serve as the foundation for this game.

    Considering that this is mainly a social game, I feel that there is no point to cater mainly to the last group, as the conclusion is that while some content should still be majorly improved, the people in this group are not interested in most of the game anyway, and therefore you are actually hurting the game and main community as a whole if you continue to attempt to satisfy this group.

    (Ironically, this also means that the argument about leaving the game if I don't like it could as easily be turned back at them, since they're actually the ones that are signalling disinterest in the majority of the content.)

    And therefore, I hope you will continue to improve progression design as a whole and not default back to a ridiculously instant levelling speed.

    Everything bolded is not true. Guess what I and many others did when we ran out of dailies/weeklies? We partook in those so-called pre-50 activities. Being level 50 does not stop you from doing anything on your pre-50 list. It actually makes some of the things on that list more accessible. This is not just a social game it's a social MMO, there is a difference between the two. We care about the social aspects, we just want to get to the MMO aspects faster as that's whats limited.
    XenostarsAlexmoCurtHumbleVerloGarlicBreadSubglacious
  • ArchimaArchima
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 895
    Posts: 8
    Member
    The mobs are too difficult to kill.
    XenostarsVerloGarlicBread
  • XenostarsXenostars
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,770
    Posts: 49
    Member
    edited 6:13AM July 20, 2018
    Cb1 leveling progress was perfect. I agree with everyone here that leveling as it is now is way too slow. And yes it is crazy slow. I prefer the level progression from cb1 than cb2. It just feels less rewarding. When I did minigames It didn't reward me as well as it did before which was a huge reason enjoyed them...
    If this is how it's going to be from 1 to 50. I can't imagine the experience to lv50 to Iv 99 and up.
    Also I don't care about reach a level in a certain amount of time just to do do whatever because I can do that now...and it would be great if we can have that cb1 progression. I can then look forward to the harshness of higher levels. 80 to 85 should take as much as it needs. 1 to 50. Should be easy leveling. Especially if it's just the beginning of the games story and that there will be way more game content in the future...
    So yeah 1 thru 50 is a giant tutorial stage...
    If that makes any sense.
    CodeVeinHumbleCurtGarlicBread
  • doofirthjrdoofirthjr
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 410
    Posts: 10
    Member
    The current state of leveling seems optimum, I think a lot of players forget that MMOs need time dedication or they just get boring too quickly. If you're playing the main quest line and hitting spots where you're under leveled you should be taking that time to explore some areas, dedicate some time to a life skill, or even just interacting in a safe zone. This game offers a lot and I think players need to see that. I read someones post about the only change that really needs to be made is distributing certain rewards to lower tiers to make the progression much more rewarding. Pets for example is a feature you should have from the get go in order to establish a bond with a pet that levels up as you do. Companionship for solo players is difficult to come by so even something as small as something that just follows you around and gains cosmetics or small abilities as you do would be perfect.
    Awoobolder_tasteLockeExile
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
    Posts: 27
    Member
    edited 6:39AM July 20, 2018
    doofirthjr wrote: »
    The current state of leveling seems optimum, I think a lot of players forget that MMOs need time dedication or they just get boring too quickly. If you're playing the main quest line and hitting spots where you're under leveled you should be taking that time to explore some areas, dedicate some time to a life skill, or even just interacting in a safe zone. This game offers a lot and I think players need to see that. I read someones post about the only change that really needs to be made is distributing certain rewards to lower tiers to make the progression much more rewarding. Pets for example is a feature you should have from the get go in order to establish a bond with a pet that levels up as you do. Companionship for solo players is difficult to come by so even something as small as something that just follows you around and gains cosmetics or small abilities as you do would be perfect.

    I think a lot of players forget that this is a casual/social MMO. There are plenty of things to dedicate your time to in this MMO, leveling should not be one of them. Especially when we know that the cap eventually gets increased to 99.

    XenostarsGarlicBread
  • VerloVerlo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 3,000
    Posts: 174
    Member
    It is amazing how things have turned around from CBT 1. Majority of the participants complained leveling was too fast and even now it looks like the majority are complaining it is too slow. Looks like you might need to meet half-way?

    Boss/Mob hp is ridiculously buffed. I never had that sense of feeling strong like I did playing maplestory 1 where I could take out groups of trash mobs with relative ease! I just felt like I was barely getting by. I have died so many more times this time around. It is starting to feel like dark souls. I think the difficulty spike here needs to be dampened.

    I really appreciate the exp reward scaling for Exploration Goals! Fantastic! Once i noticed this I actually stopped doing world quests! It was more rewarding and Faster to level this way! Maybe introduce some daily exploration goal rewards to keep this going indefinitely when a player completes 571 stars. A great way to level IMHO.

    If you could just implement the exp reward scaling system from exploration goals to world quests and dungeons that too would provide better incentive for players to go back and complete older/earlier content and still find them worthwhile to do.

    Also, I gotta say. I am DISAPPOINTED with NAVIGATOR REWARDS. We were getting full sets of gear every 5 levels to help strengthen our characters and keep up with the content we were up against. Now we get a measly 1 item that becomes obsolete very quickly!

    I actually found a lot of the epic/world quest gear rewards become redundant FAST. Great to get new gear but with the RNG and grading it never really felt like the gear made a huge difference.
    Xenostars
  • EmmaClarkeEmmaClarke
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,145
    Posts: 40
    Member
    edited 8:58AM July 20, 2018
    I just made it to level 50 yesterday so I did it in about two days. I felt the pacing was pretty similar to say CBT1 just with breaks inbetween which I didn't really mind too much as it gave me an excuse to take a break and try other content. I am actually rather enjoying the story, but not everyone will enjoy going through it as the best way to level as people are all about efficiency. Like others would state I would think about making all forms of activities equally valid for leveling up as it would give us all a chance to level up in a way that we want whether we like the story, the world quest, dungeons, music, or ect.

    Of course people are going to eventually find the most efficient way to level and probably go that route, but the important thing would be options! As for the challenges of fighting the bosses and going through the dungeon I felt they were definitely far more challenging this time and I loved it! I always enjoy a good challenge myself and I have died many times! I love the challenge, but I would recommend fine tuning the bosses to the point where there is a real challenge, but they aren't frustrating.

    Overall I like the way that MS2 is going and I think your team is putting in lots of effort to make MS2 an amazing MMO. :)
    bolder_tasteAgent_Dragonfury
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
    Posts: 27
    Member
    This artificial difficulty needs to be changed. Giving mobs/bosses 2x-3x more hp does not make them harder, it makes them unnecessarily tedious and time-consuming which is not fun. You can add more spawns/implement better ai to increase the difficulty. HP bloating just slows everything down.
    ShiktoXenostarsCurtAlexmoHumbleVerloPsYDaniGarlicBreadCrowve
  • OvernOvern
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,005
    Posts: 42
    Member
    I'm actually barely keeping up with the main story's level cap by doing Exploration objectives when I travel between areas, I've also completely stopped doing Side quests since there's literally no point in doing them as the rewards are never worth it. I also ended up skipping the rest of the Gold tower dungeon or whatever it was called since the moment I was able to do them I was well beyond the level required for them.

    What's more is that while I do desire to fight Elite and Boss monsters, there's literally no point fighting bosses until you hit level 50 to get gear off them as any reward you earn just gets replaced in 2-3 levels for what is hours of work due to how beefy they are. Additionally, Players tend to IGNORE you when you're fighting a Boss. Take that into consideration considering I spent about 100 merits calling for help when soloing Alpha. I literally nearly killed him myself after an hour and twenty minutes except for one guy who ran in at the final notch of his health to reap my work despite calling for help hours ago.

    Introduce a panic button or announcement that say; "If player has been fighting Boss alone or with 3 or less players for 5-10 minutes, send out an announcement that can teleport players into the area (not the boss fight as they'll probably take a lot of damage when loading in) And receive maybe.. a 10% reward boost in Meso, exp and quality chance if they help out. It wouldn't so high that people will only join if that announcement happens, but low enough that players won't stop what they're doing if they're busy. Also.. seriously.. INCREASE THOSE REWARDS!! It's not enough for the gear to be scaled up, bosses need to explode with loot, The meso gain also seems to be the same regardless of the fight so Make higher level bosses spit out more money.
    CodeVeinXenostarsAlexmoVerloLockeExile
  • SpiritFoxGamingSpiritFoxGaming
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,360
    Posts: 31
    Member
    edited 8:29PM July 20, 2018
    I feel that the leveling is too slow. I usually enjoy making a lot of alternate characters, I did so in CBT1 with only 1 getting max level. I agree that CBT1 felt a little too *free* when it came to XP gain. I also feel CBT1 was on the right path, a slight nudge would have been better. CBT2 just feels like a complete 180, instead of a slight balance it was a massive balance. This impact is rough since most quests feel unrewarding or pointless to complete due to lack of XP/Rewards given.

    Something along the lines of CBT1 with a slight nudge would have been more balanced, Monsters also feel extremely overpowered. I found myself dying 10x more than I did with CBT1, This is minor IMO and I wouldn't be so opposed to it if there weren't current issues with how Mobs work, Making them harder is fine but you didn't give anything in value to said increase. It's the same old XP style, Same old Equip Drops. CBT2 just feels like you made it hard as hell to level up and in return made Mobs way stronger with more HP, thus making Players weaker and causing us to die more. This mixed with the XP Balance in CBT2... It just felt like nothing besides a Massive Nerf, Feels like each Class was nerfed to all hell and leveling was made insanely difficult due in part to this and the XP nerf.


    So to make this less of a mess to read, I'll write a few things I've encountered that felt off or nerfed a bit too much.

    XP Gain - Nerfed by way too much, slight nerf would be fine based on CBT1 XP Rate, but this is a complete 180 imo.

    Mobs - Making them stronger with more HP coupled with the XP Rate issue, made them hard to kill. Plus them giving no XP gives no real reason to mob at all.

    Questing - I feel Story Quests should give a bit more XP, Side quests should give WAY more XP or at least something of decent value as a reward. As of now, Side Quests are a must to hit 50 since Story Quests no longer get you to 50 alone. The issue is Side Quests have no real purpose to them, they give low XP and nothing of value as rewards.

    Dungeons Issues - (I've only done a few in CBT2 so far) From my experience with dungeons so far, I feel the XP should be increased for Dungeons by like double. There should also be more ways to earn XP/Rewards depending on what you did. Like top dmg player getting an extra Item or a solid 5% XP bar, I assume fixing the XP itself would fix Dungeons though since prior to CBT2 Dungeons were giving way more XP since CBT1 had better XP Rates.

    Dungeon recommendations - I feel earlier dungeons fall off at later levels. I'd like to request something that could benefit the lifespan of Dungeons for this game, This should fix any issues with Dungeons slowly dying off similar to PQs in MS1. At some point during the game make Dungeons start scaling to your level and possibly offering better rewards than they originally did. An example would be like Meso Sacks or Merets. Not a lot (Mesos amount depends on Economy ofc), I'd expect Merets to be smaller amount like a chance of 5-10 or so.

    Pets - Please for the love of all Animal Lovers, DON'T MAKE THEM Lv50 :(, I got sad after I realized it was set to 50 for all Pets. There is no need for this, They're just Animals. They did nothing wrong besides some of them trying to kill us...


    P.S - I'm not against what others have said here either, Lowering the XP rate for literally everything like Main Quests/Side Quests and making leveling super slow. I think this would also be ok IMO, I do however suggest that if this is done that Mobing is fixed, made less difficult and that Mobs give more XP than now. This would open up 2 Windows of Gameplay, Questers, and Grinders. This can also be said with increasing XP of Side Quests and Mobs, however. Either way, you go about it, the main issue is Balance of different ordeals atm. Grinding isn't possible due to Low XP and questing is good but side quests give to little or vice-versa. Personally, I'd like a faster leveling like CBT1 but slightly nerfed rather than just Nuked like it is in CBT2 LOL.

    That said, I also know about the whole Lv70 ordeal in MS2, I'm fully aware of it and this is why I'm pushing the fact of leveling being to slow. MS2 has been released in Korea for so long now, yet not a SINGLE PLAYER, not even ONE has hit Max Level. Whether this is due to the popularity of the game over there or it's due to it being just that hard. I do feel like the game needs faster leveling, If it stays with how slow it is now at this current state and then Lv70+ is released, Those asking for slower leveling are going to be regretting it. No one has hit max level in KMS2, it's been over 2 years or so and they're running off the same XP as CBT1 for GMS2 more or less, Imagine our current XP Rate and then make it 900x worse, welcome to 70+.
    CodeVeinXenostarsCurtVerloSubglacious
  • CurtCurt
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,330
    Posts: 23
    Member
    edited 3:27PM July 20, 2018
    DanDK wrote: »

    Finally, we have people very vocal about finding it too slow that they have to play an entire day to reach level 50. The only reason I can fathom for this is that they have no interest in the pre50 activities but only enjoy the post50 activities, hence rushing past content. These people want fast levelling so they don't have to bother.

    Now, as I mentioned in my previous post, many pre50 activities are badly designed which is in defence of the third group, but there are also many good social activities and they do serve as the foundation for this game.

    Considering that this is mainly a social game, I feel that there is no point to cater mainly to the last group, as the conclusion is that while some content should still be majorly improved, the people in this group are not interested in most of the game anyway, and therefore you are actually hurting the game and main community as a whole if you continue to attempt to satisfy this group.

    (Ironically, this also means that the argument about leaving the game if I don't like it could as easily be turned back at them, since they're actually the ones that are signalling disinterest in the majority of the content.)

    And therefore, I hope you will continue to improve progression design as a whole and not default back to a ridiculously instant levelling speed.

    Don't invalidate people's feedback because it doesn't agree with yours. That's the point of feedback, and these forums. If someone doesn't like something, they're going to say it, if they do like something, they're going to say it. Insane concept, I get that.

    Telling a gaming company to not listen/cater to a portion of their playerbase because they like/dislike something you don't/do agree with is just sickening. I don't get why you feel like people's feedback shouldn't be heard.

    Also I do agree with another post that was posted recently, this isn't a social game, it's a social MMO. If it was just a social game, then there wouldn't be leveling in the first place. We'd all just spawn in Henesys and be forced to talk to each other.

    CodeVeinVerlo
  • ChillBearChillBear
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 5,690
    Posts: 292
    Member
    The problem with levelling now is that the epic quest line gives so much XP it makes everything else feel so slow. There really needs to be a balance struck here. How fast do you want people to reach end game level? In CBT 1 it took me around 8-10 hours, this time it took me about 13-15 hours. Still, I feel like thats too fast. I'm from an era where grinding in MMOs was a thing and the journey rather than the destination was the lure to the game.

    I really feel like story quests should be nerfed hard and every other method of XP gain buffed. IMO getting to max level should take a few weeks of effort - that way players can enjoy exploration of the entire world, the many underused dungeons, grinding out the many mobs and doing side activities. The problem with the current system again like CBT 1 is that we're skipping through everything the world has to offer. What's the point of all these maps, mobs, dungeons, etc if we never even engage with it because our levels are skipped so quickly.

    The game feels like a dungeon crawler, promoting us to max level as quickly as possible in order to farm dungeons for gear. That's not the MMO I remember that made the original Maple Story so popular, let alone other MMOs out there.
    bolder_tastePsYDaniAgent_DragonfuryLockeExile
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
    Posts: 27
    Member
    edited 4:19PM July 20, 2018
    ChillBear wrote: »
    The problem with levelling now is that the epic quest line gives so much XP it makes everything else feel so slow. There really needs to be a balance struck here. How fast do you want people to reach end game level? In CBT 1 it took me around 8-10 hours, this time it took me about 13-15 hours. Still, I feel like thats too fast. I'm from an era where grinding in MMOs was a thing and the journey rather than the destination was the lure to the game.

    I really feel like story quests should be nerfed hard and every other method of XP gain buffed. IMO getting to max level should take a few weeks of effort - that way players can enjoy exploration of the entire world, the many underused dungeons, grinding out the many mobs and doing side activities. The problem with the current system again like CBT 1 is that we're skipping through everything the world has to offer. What's the point of all these maps, mobs, dungeons, etc if we never even engage with it because our levels are skipped so quickly.

    The game feels like a dungeon crawler, promoting us to max level as quickly as possible in order to farm dungeons for gear. That's not the MMO I remember that made the original Maple Story so popular, let alone other MMOs out there.

    My first MMO was Ragnarok Online, that game was the very definition of a Korean grindfest and I loved every minute of it. That game was also marketed and developed as an MMO for people who enjoyed grindfest. Once again, Maplestory 2 is not being marketed/developed as a hardcore MMO. It is a CASUAL/SOCIAL MMO. I love hardcore MMO's, I also love casual MMO's. What I love most is letting MMO's stay how they were intended. This is not pre-big bang Maplestory 1 and people need to accept that.

    Curt
  • MisterBluMisterBlu
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 360
    Posts: 2
    Member
    edited 4:18PM July 20, 2018
    The leveling progression is WAY too slow. Everyone that's complained about leveling too fast has obviously not realized that the level cap is 99 in the actual game. This is CBT. Once you hit level 70 it's basically a brick wall anyway. This game IS NOT MAPLESTORY 1! Please don't turn this game into a grind-fest. The game doesn't even start until AFTER level 50 anyway. There is literally no point in making leveling this hard and making all the bosses/mobs that much harder to kill. All this is doing is ruining the game before it even launches. If we wanted to sit there and grind for months to level we'd play Maplestory 1. Just keep everything that was in KMS. The game is already perfect how it is. Nobody has even reached max level in KMS and it's been 3 years.. The exp curve is just fine how it was.
    Also nerfing Cathy mart and other dungeons from 1.5mil exp -> 300k is a JOKE
    You're basically just taking everything that WAS efficient and worth doing and completely turning it into garbage.
    CodeVeinGarlicBreadSpiritFoxGaming
  • MisterBluMisterBlu
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 360
    Posts: 2
    Member
    CodeVein wrote: »
    DanDK wrote: »
    I'd just like to add some elaboration to my post from yesterday as it might've come across a bit contradictory, I just felt I had to write something against the many complaints about slow progress. I've been thinking a bit more about it and am trying to understand people's reasoning.

    Let me start by adding a list of things you can do in the game pre50 and post50.

    Pre-50:
    Main quest
    World quests
    Exploration
    Minigame events
    World maps/events
    Dungeons
    Combat skills
    Life Skills
    Housing
    Fishing
    Music
    Cosmetics
    Socializing
    Arcade

    Post50:
    PvP
    Gear hunting
    Raids
    Pet Taming (final?)


    Let me also remind everyone that people generally agree that this is a social game, no matter their stance on levelling.

    During my time on the forums I generally see three categories of people.
    The first group would be some sort of social purists that mainly care about the pre50 aspects and don't care at all whether levelling is slow or fast because they have no interest in end game content. They don't really matter in the levelling debate context, but they do remind us that the game is mainly designed for social activities.

    The second group is the one I'd classify myself as, enjoying both the social stuff at my own pace but also looking forward to progress at end game eventually. For instance, during both CBT1 and CBT2, I spent many hours just enjoying the various content with friends and got about 5-10 levels a day, which is more than fast enough for me given what you can do. To us, incredibly fast levelling is a setback because it devalues the experience of every other activity and makes each success relatively less rewarding, as well as feeling a need to rush along to avoid falling behind.

    Finally, we have people very vocal about finding it too slow that they have to play an entire day to reach level 50. The only reason I can fathom for this is that they have no interest in the pre50 activities but only enjoy the post50 activities, hence rushing past content. These people want fast levelling so they don't have to bother.

    Now, as I mentioned in my previous post, many pre50 activities are badly designed which is in defence of the third group, but there are also many good social activities and they do serve as the foundation for this game.

    Considering that this is mainly a social game, I feel that there is no point to cater mainly to the last group, as the conclusion is that while some content should still be majorly improved, the people in this group are not interested in most of the game anyway, and therefore you are actually hurting the game and main community as a whole if you continue to attempt to satisfy this group.

    (Ironically, this also means that the argument about leaving the game if I don't like it could as easily be turned back at them, since they're actually the ones that are signalling disinterest in the majority of the content.)

    And therefore, I hope you will continue to improve progression design as a whole and not default back to a ridiculously instant levelling speed.

    Everything bolded is not true. Guess what I and many others did when we ran out of dailies/weeklies? We partook in those so-called pre-50 activities. Being level 50 does not stop you from doing anything on your pre-50 list. It actually makes some of the things on that list more accessible. This is not just a social game it's a social MMO, there is a difference between the two. We care about the social aspects, we just want to get to the MMO aspects faster as that's whats limited.

    There's no point in making the game hard up to level 50 when at 70 you hit an insane leveling curve anyway. In the 3 years of KMS2 being out Not one person has reached max level
    The first half of the game is all boring epic quest lines anyway.
    CodeVeinPilikenSpiritFoxGaming
  • lodicololodicolo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 450
    Post: 1
    Member
    For some context about my commentary: I am someone who thought that getting to 50 in 6 hours and being forced to do the epic quest line was bad (the time was far too fast and the EQL is torturous). What I wanted and asked for was the ability to choose how I got to 50, and for the epic quest line to not be a requirement to maximize my character.

    Let's not kid ourselves, to maximize your character in this game you have to do the epic quest line. A non-zero amount of AP and SP are both locked behind it. You could grind to 50 and then do EQL, but that's a colossal waste of time, and you're still not choosing anything besides wasting additional time or not. This is one thing even MS1 got right -- tying the core character power progression (AP/SP) to level progression, which is commonly used as a proxy for time investment in many popular games. There is a reason this system is used so widely, and just doing something different doesn't necessarily make it better, and it's very evident that you can do much worse in MS2.

    I can understand the epic quest line being the preferred means of leveling as far as the developers are concerned, but it shouldn't be so blatantly overpowered that it's the only sane way of leveling up, and it shouldn't be a requirement that we mix means of leveling. I specifically asked for side quests to be added as an alternative not as an addition to the EQL, which is still required. I specifically asked for grinding to be a viable alternative as well, but it is absolutely not.

    Our major sources of EXP are auto-fishing, auto-performing, mob grinding/farming, side quests, MC Kay's semi-hourly mini-games, and the epic quest line. Active time investment should obviously be better rewarded than passive time investment, meaning they get more experience (and thus faster level progression).

    Active time investments would include (but are not limited to since I'm definitely forgetting something):
    - MC Kay's semi-hourly mini games/events
    - Manually fishing
    - Manually performing (i.e. without the auto-performing voucher and without automatically playing sheet music -- ideally we have a way to play music trying to match notes with sheet music in a more watered-down form of Guitar Hero/Rock Band)
    - Mob grinding
    - Side quests
    - Epic Quests

    Passive time investments would include:
    - Auto-fishing
    - Auto-performing

    Active time investments in the game should reward more than passive time investments, but reward roughly similar amounts of experience as each other. I wouldn't have a complaint if the epic quest line was 10% faster than side quests/manual fishing/manual performing/MC Kay's events, 5% faster than pure grinding, and 20% faster than the passive time investments. Likely people would want to mix and match things, but they shouldn't be forced to do so like we are in CBT2.

    Now there's one other thing that I haven't mentioned and that's actually the difficulty of doing any of these methods. Obviously the passive investments are easy, but the quests (side or epic) and grinding are not. Time investment shouldn't be artificially increased with unskippable cutscenes, and mobs with egregious amounts of HP. Beating Ralph's lackey Kokun should not have resulted in my death unless I was just sitting there taking damage.

    Mob attacks to player health ratio is skewed far above that of player attacks to health ratio. All of the mobs and required "quest bosses" shouldn't be so risky. Mobs are not even remotely scaled to actual player ability, and it's not fun. All of the early dungeons that are required for the epic quest line are even worse, as they're still scaled in a way that should require a team to beat, but are expected to be done solo.

    Two days ago when I was having difficulty beating Kokun as a Priest (just because I'm not a DPS doesn't mean the required quest we all share should come anywhere close to the edge of impossibility) I decided to auto-fish, chalking it up to my not being a DPS and the difficulty being raised ever so slightly... but today when I actually started doing the quests it became apparent that I was wrong. I was 20 levels over-leveled and am still having difficulty. I'm not kidding. I'm level 39 as a result of auto-fishing, decked out with all of the free AP and SP that I get without doing the EQL I was having trouble not dying. I realize I still had low level equipment, but my over-leveled skills and stats made the game barely tolerable... well maybe not since writing this post is more enjoyable than actually "playing" the game. I shudder to think how much I would have hated trying to do the same dungeons without being over-leveled, and based on the commentary of my guild mates, a lot.

    Suggestions:
    - Remove ability and skill points from the epic quest line and map their unlocks to the levels the quest line would have been giving them at so that it isn't mandatory
    - Reduce mob health and damage (not just one, they are both problems on their own) and just moderately increase the number of mobs we need to complete quests
    - Increase mob experience so that grinding is actually a viable alternative to the epic quest line, even if it's slightly (and I gave a number of 5% earlier to give you an idea of what I mean by slightly) slower than the epic quests
    - Make all of the cut scenes in the epic quest line actually skippable, and condense the "chat scenes" so it requires less spacebar mashing to skip (I shouldn't have to get repetitive strain injuries playing the game)
    - If increasing mob and dungeon EXP for viable grinding and a minor increase of the amount of mob kills required for the quests doesn't fix the gaps in the epic quest line, buff the quest line a little bit to make it seamless again (the idea of slowing it so it takes a couple of more hours to get to 50 was by increasing quest task completion time not artificially extending the quest line with EXP reduction)
    - Adjust EXP and quest requirements to make the side quests meaningful as an alternative leveling method, not a complementary one

    What little balance existed in CBT1 was completely destroyed in CBT2. What was a game that left players miffed in CBT1 has resulted in players not actively playing CBT2 and instead writing complaints on the forum and Discord.

    My final suggestion is that you don't just follow one of my suggestions. My suggestions were to balance out the different parts of the game and give players more freedom. Only heeding one of them will result in the same problems that exist as a result of not genuinely trying to incorporate suggestions and balance the results. Really they all need to be addressed.

    And don't just stop with this list, I'm sure I didn't cover even close to all of the problems and their solutions. I'm also not trying to make money from the players, I'm trying to make sure that my money spent gets me actual entertainment, not just a meager sense of accomplishment because I stand atop a mountain of players who gave up.
    ZyconCodeVeinmelatoninlolAlexmoHumbleVerlo
  • ChillBearChillBear
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 5,690
    Posts: 292
    Member
    CodeVein wrote: »
    ChillBear wrote: »
    The problem with levelling now is that the epic quest line gives so much XP it makes everything else feel so slow. There really needs to be a balance struck here. How fast do you want people to reach end game level? In CBT 1 it took me around 8-10 hours, this time it took me about 13-15 hours. Still, I feel like thats too fast. I'm from an era where grinding in MMOs was a thing and the journey rather than the destination was the lure to the game.

    I really feel like story quests should be nerfed hard and every other method of XP gain buffed. IMO getting to max level should take a few weeks of effort - that way players can enjoy exploration of the entire world, the many underused dungeons, grinding out the many mobs and doing side activities. The problem with the current system again like CBT 1 is that we're skipping through everything the world has to offer. What's the point of all these maps, mobs, dungeons, etc if we never even engage with it because our levels are skipped so quickly.

    The game feels like a dungeon crawler, promoting us to max level as quickly as possible in order to farm dungeons for gear. That's not the MMO I remember that made the original Maple Story so popular, let alone other MMOs out there.

    My first MMO was Ragnarok Online, that game was the very definition of a Korean grindfest and I loved every minute of it. That game was also marketed and developed as an MMO for people who enjoyed grindfest. Once again, Maplestory 2 is not being marketed/developed as a hardcore MMO. It is a CASUAL/SOCIAL MMO. I love hardcore MMO's, I also love casual MMO's. What I love most is letting MMO's stay how they were intended. This is not pre-big bang Maplestory 1 and people need to accept that.

    You do realise when MS2 was released in Korea it's progression system wasn't like this and reliant on an epic quest system? But they've gone the way of so many other Korean MMOs and turned it into a dungeon crawler, hurtling us into end game ASAP and neglecting the rest of the game. If it were a grindfest, with dungeons being an optional method of gathering XP/loot, it would be far more enjoyable.

    The game needs to be a hardcore grindfest or its longevity will suffer.
    bolder_taste
  • CodeVeinCodeVein
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 890
    Posts: 27
    Member
    edited 10:59PM July 20, 2018
    ChillBear wrote: »
    CodeVein wrote: »
    ChillBear wrote: »
    The problem with levelling now is that the epic quest line gives so much XP it makes everything else feel so slow. There really needs to be a balance struck here. How fast do you want people to reach end game level? In CBT 1 it took me around 8-10 hours, this time it took me about 13-15 hours. Still, I feel like thats too fast. I'm from an era where grinding in MMOs was a thing and the journey rather than the destination was the lure to the game.

    I really feel like story quests should be nerfed hard and every other method of XP gain buffed. IMO getting to max level should take a few weeks of effort - that way players can enjoy exploration of the entire world, the many underused dungeons, grinding out the many mobs and doing side activities. The problem with the current system again like CBT 1 is that we're skipping through everything the world has to offer. What's the point of all these maps, mobs, dungeons, etc if we never even engage with it because our levels are skipped so quickly.

    The game feels like a dungeon crawler, promoting us to max level as quickly as possible in order to farm dungeons for gear. That's not the MMO I remember that made the original Maple Story so popular, let alone other MMOs out there.

    My first MMO was Ragnarok Online, that game was the very definition of a Korean grindfest and I loved every minute of it. That game was also marketed and developed as an MMO for people who enjoyed grindfest. Once again, Maplestory 2 is not being marketed/developed as a hardcore MMO. It is a CASUAL/SOCIAL MMO. I love hardcore MMO's, I also love casual MMO's. What I love most is letting MMO's stay how they were intended. This is not pre-big bang Maplestory 1 and people need to accept that.

    You do realise when MS2 was released in Korea it's progression system wasn't like this and reliant on an epic quest system? But they've gone the way of so many other Korean MMOs and turned it into a dungeon crawler, hurtling us into end game ASAP and neglecting the rest of the game. If it were a grindfest, with dungeons being an optional method of gathering XP/loot, it would be far more enjoyable.

    The game needs to be a hardcore grindfest or its longevity will suffer.

    I played KMS2 when it released and it wasn't a grindfest then either. It's clear that MS2 was not made for hardcore players, it was made for casual players. Instead of the hardcore crowd accepting this and moving on, you guys are trying to take the casual players game away from them and turn it into what you want it to be. I despise that mentality with a passion. Every game has its target audience, those of us who love hardcore PvE play games like FFXIV or something similar because those games were made with us in mind. I don't ask for hardcore games to be made casual, stop asking for casual games to be made hardcore.
    GarlicBreadSpiritFoxGaming
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