Please do not send inquiries to the Forum Moderators and Community Manager Cuddles regarding forum name changes. Exceptions are only made if the forum name violates the CoC. Thank you for understanding.
Closed

[Feedback] PvP

NXACuddlesNXACuddles
Maplestory 2 Rep: 69,125
Posts: 514
Administrator
edited 8:57PM July 14, 2018 in Closed Beta 2 Feedback
Please leave your feedback regarding PvP here.
Sháng

Comments

  • RamzaRamza
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,135
    Posts: 28
    Member
    While I haven't had the opportunity to test PvP in CBT2 yet, I did check the Arena shop upon logging in and was disappointed to not see any of the PvP equipment players were asking for after CBT1 ended.

    If it ends up being anything like CBT1, we won't be able to give much feedback on things like class balance when the overall balance of PvP will be so skewed due to gear. Controlled testing via PK maps might be a thing but it wholly isn't going to matter when the game devolves into who has the bigger stat stick.

    Please add in the PvP equipment present in the Arena shop on the Korean server for our open beta/official release.

  • WatchGintamaWatchGintama
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 3,460
    Posts: 96
    Member
    edited 3:24PM July 18, 2018
    My #1 feedback for CBT1 was to add PVP gear for arena. It's disappointing again that it is not available and won't bother PVPing or playing much.

    How about reading the existing feedback from CBT1 about PVP gear that many of us gave:
    http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/33800/pvp-needs-to-be-gear-independent/p1
    http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/34915/can-we-please-get-pvp-gear
    http://forums.maplestory2.nexon.net/discussion/33415/has-anyone-tried-pvp-yet

    Please add PVP gear. That is the only thing that needs to be said about PVP right now. It is too gear based and awful.


    RedvannDennaNo1
  • FriendshipFriendship
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,460
    Posts: 28
    Member
    edited 2:38AM July 19, 2018
    The difference between CBT2 and CBT1 is an even wider gap in gear segregation. PvP has become completely gear-based and not at all skill-based.

    This feedback is just from the frustration of the first day, but I am 10/10 in dungeon runs and players with better RNG than me have been able to obtain gear that can kill me in 2 skills, while I am still struggling with my base Lv 50 weapons (or +7 Lv 48 gear using coupon). Just now, I have had the experience in Red Arena where I defeat all the other players that are within my gear range (starter lv 50 equips), and the last player with epic armors and weapons 2-shot me (and would have to other players) with homing-based skills.

    Today I have been matched in arena, 80% of the time with players with Epic-tier weapons and 20% of players with nearsame baseline Lv 50 gear (or luck or RNG) to me. The difference between the weapons is an attack of at least twofold. If also wearing Epic-tier armor, they will take less than half of regular damage.

    As a concrete example, a player with Epic-tier weapons can 2-shot players using only baseline LV 50 Gear. The attack difference is about double before multipliers, and the armor reduction difference is even higher.

    Simultaneously the scaling on the Lengedary-tier equipment vs the Epic-tier equipment is over 2x as effective, before enhancements, leading to the same effect as Epic vs Baseline gear.

    So if you were to place a Legendary-tier player vs baseline lv 50 gear player, it is undoubtedly, a One-Shot, with zero counterplay.

    First of all, PvP in MapleStory 2 is already a niche activity. There are not many players who play PvP, but those who do have enjoyed PvP very much previously. When choosing not to implement or balance PvP Gear for CBT2, we are getting worse results than we have gotten from the first CBT. The power imbalance was clear in the first CBT, but enough people have had access to the endgame gear (via fishing) that it will not be nearly as much of a problem. Additionally, enhancements were capped at +9, keeping the gap relatively smaller.

    With the introduction of Chaos Dvorak, +15 enhancements, and the difficulty required in obtaining such legendary gear, there is an extreme power-imbalance between the top guild, a run-of-the-mill guild, and an individual who only plays the game for PvP. Because this currently mainly stems from a PvE gear-obtaining method, this type of power-gap and progression is expected. A top guild can continue obtaining extra copies of these legendary equipment, selling them for more meso to gain more onyx, and chaos onyx for continued upgrades.

    The group that gets to the higher-tier raid first can snowball their lead by farming the Chaos Raid (maxing out runs for the whole group, in-trading gear, obtaining multiple copies to upgrade past +12, etc. ). Meanwhile, a guild that is still learning the game will have a more difficult time transitioning to Chaos Balrog within the given test time frame, and very unlikely will they be able to clear Chaos Dvorak, let alone farm it.

    Because of this snowball, and the lack of a PvP gear environment, the gap will undoubtedly widen throughout CBT2. The guild at the top can choose to sit in PvP using Legendary gear from the raid that only they have completed, and farm everyone for valor tokens without needing to move their character, PvE-style. This is obviously non-engaging gameplay that could have been prevented by:

    1. Re-balancing PvP Gear for the suitable scaling
    2. Placing the re-balanced PvP Gear in the Arena shop
    3. Gathering feedback on the PvP Gear and its impact on PvP, rather than "PvP as a whole" as we are running in circles from CBT1.

    Other alternate methods
    - Forcing everyone to use a variation of PvP gear by Zeroing PvE Raw Attack and Raw Defense stats on PvE gears, preserving options that the equip may have.
    - Disallowing entry without certain gear prerequisites (Gearscore cap, Attack cap, Defense cap, PvP gear requirement, etc.)
    - Additionally scaling down enhancements to a cap

    In conclusion, the biggest problem in PvP in MapleStory 2 is extremely high barrier of entry and gear overscaling, which leads to high levels of frustration and dissonance between the player and the game. Players should be able to PvP on a relatively even ground starting when they hit Lv 50, not after they have farmed all content, rigorously upgraded their weapons, and expended thousands of hours into the game.
    AxyKakkisUberchaoNorthboundTylerTheDragonElec_squirrel10ZerolioImpalaPUABrosephineFernandand 7 others.
  • AxyAxy
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,020
    Posts: 85
    Member
    Friendship wrote: »
    The difference between CBT2 and CBT1 is an even wider gap in gear segregation. PvP has become completely gear-based and not at all skill-based.

    This feedback is just from the frustration of the first day, but I am 10/10 in dungeon runs and players with better RNG than me have been able to obtain gear that can kill me in 2 skills, while I am still struggling with my base Lv 50 weapons (or +7 Lv 48 gear using coupon). Just now, I have had the experience in Red Arena where I defeat all the other players that are within my gear range (starter lv 50 equips), and the last player with epic armors and weapons 2-shot me (and would have to other players) with homing-based skills.

    Today I have been matched in arena, 80% of the time with players with Epic-tier weapons and 20% of players with nearsame baseline Lv 50 gear (or luck or RNG) to me. The difference between the weapons is an attack of at least twofold. If also wearing Epic-tier armor, they will take less than half of regular damage.

    As a concrete example, a player with Epic-tier weapons can 2-shot players using only baseline LV 50 Gear. The attack difference is about double before multipliers, and the armor reduction difference is even higher.

    Simultaneously the scaling on the Lengedary-tier equipment vs the Epic-tier equipment is over 2x as effective, before enhancements, leading to the same effect as Epic vs Baseline gear.

    So if you were to place a Legendary-tier player vs baseline lv 50 gear player, it is undoubtedly, a One-Shot, with zero counterplay.

    First of all, PvP in MapleStory 2 is already a niche activity. There are not many players who play PvP, but those who do have enjoyed PvP very much previously. When choosing not to implement or balance PvP Gear for CBT2, we are getting worse results than we have gotten from the first CBT. The power imbalance was clear in the first CBT, but enough people have had access to the endgame gear (via fishing) that it will not be nearly as much of a problem. Additionally, enhancements were capped at +9, keeping the gap relatively smaller.

    With the introduction of Chaos Dvorak, +15 enhancements, and the difficulty required in obtaining such legendary gear, there is an extreme power-imbalance between the top guild, a run-of-the-mill guild, and an individual who only plays the game for PvP. Because this currently mainly stems from a PvE gear-obtaining method, this type of power-gap and progression is expected. A top guild can continue obtaining extra copies of these legendary equipment, selling them for more meso to gain more onyx, and chaos onyx for continued upgrades.

    The group that gets to the higher-tier raid first can snowball their lead by farming the Chaos Raid (maxing out runs for the whole group, in-trading gear, obtaining multiple copies to upgrade past +12, etc. ). Meanwhile, a guild that is still learning the game will have a more difficult time transitioning to Chaos Balrog within the given test time frame, and very unlikely will they be able to clear Chaos Dvorak, let alone farm it.

    Because of this snowball, and the lack of a PvP gear environment, the gap will undoubtedly widen throughout CBT2. The guild at the top can choose to sit in PvP using Legendary gear from the raid that only they have completed, and farm everyone for valor tokens without needing to move their character, PvE-style. This is obviously non-engaging gameplay that could have been prevented by:

    1. Re-balancing PvP Gear for the suitable scaling
    2. Placing the re-balanced PvP Gear in the Arena shop
    3. Gathering feedback on the PvP Gear and its impact on PvP, rather than "PvP as a whole" as we are running in circles from CBT1.

    Other alternate methods
    - Forcing everyone to use a variation of PvP gear by Zeroing PvE Raw Attack and Raw Defense stats on PvE gears, preserving options that the equip may have.
    - Disallowing entry without certain gear prerequisites (Gearscore cap, Attack cap, Defense cap, PvP gear requirement, etc.)
    - Additionally scaling down enhancements to a cap

    In conclusion, the biggest problem in PvP in MapleStory 2 is extremely high barrier of entry and gear overscaling, which leads to high levels of frustration and dissonance between the player and the game. Players should be able to PvP on a relatively even ground starting when they hit Lv 50, not after they have farmed all content, rigorously upgraded their weapons, and expended thousands of hours into the game.

    This entire post should be the feedback you pay most attention to.

    I'd also like to request that they make arena style duels(being able to challenge a specific player for no rating of course ) a thing. I myself have had a ton of fun with the pvp in ms2 and would like to try to build a strong community for it through regularly hosted tournaments and such, plus it would allow people to get better without having to worry about the pressure of rating, and get better at certain matchups that they struggle with.

    Hope you don't leave the pvp community unnoticed, even if we are small at the moment, the steps you've taken to make the game better will attract more players, which will ultimately let us grow as long as we're not neglected.
    KakkisNorthboundKrowie
  • KakkisKakkis
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 275
    Posts: 2
    Member
    edited 11:17AM July 20, 2018
    I couldn't agree more with all the above.

    Also, if we could have some kind of team pvp to play with your friends, like a 3v3 queue or something like that, since PvP events doesnt necesarily match you with your mates in party, and only 1v1 arena can turn boring due to individualism.
    AxyBrosephineDenna
  • RamzaRamza
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,135
    Posts: 28
    Member
    I found this in Queenstown:
    https://i.imgur.com/Ur5wgF0.jpg
    I think it about sums up how most people feel in regards to PvP right now, lol
    KakkisTheCurrySauseBanditDanDKSubglaciousSamusown
  • WatchGintamaWatchGintama
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 3,460
    Posts: 96
    Member
    unknown.png
    NorthboundRamzaWarameKrowieZerolioImpalaPUABrosephineMXSteelFernandVaynthand 4 others.
  • NorthboundNorthbound
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 3,045
    Posts: 119
    Member
    Were there any changes to PvP, class balance, or reward structure? The feedback is going to be the exact same as last time: gear gaps between players makes the mode suck, more modes rather than just 1v1, and show player class on the rankings. There's probably a bunch people could say about class balance in PvP, but it doesn't seem like you made any changes from the first beta so why bother writing feedback that you seem to just ignore?
    Fernand
  • MinxMinx
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 330
    Posts: 4
    Member
    More PVP pls :3 if there was a equalized arena were u can pvp without gear or at least have gear that equalizes your stats would be really nice. Also, maybe having a separate Battlegrounds Mode where you can include gear for gear based pvp to add variety to the PVP modes. This way there can be equalized arena, battlegrounds and/or a 3v3 pvp modes. Another thought would be having a variety of PVP quests or rewards to add to the rankings to make it more rewarding as well as maybe having a emblem showing by the players name that represents the players rank ( diamond, gold, silver bronze) in Chat when they talk. A title and a temporary specific PVP/champion outfit can be rewarded to those in the top rankings to display the players achievements would be cool as well :3
    BrosephineDenna
  • WarameWarame
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,820
    Posts: 57
    Member
    PVP should be equalized and balanced for everyone or it will suck. That's it.
    Check Guild Wars 2 or any MOBA to learn how to do a proper PVP content.
    Fernand
  • suchalameosuchalameo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 500
    Posts: 15
    Member
    edited 9:39PM July 20, 2018
    People complaining about gear carried, you're in the wrong game. R1 is literally a mage with 1 purple piece.. I'm sure if you're bad and just eating all the damage from a fully-geared player with nothing on you, ya its going to seem a little unfair but if you're playing properly, gear isn't going to matter much outside of a slight statistical %+
  • AxyAxy
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,020
    Posts: 85
    Member
    suchalameo wrote: »
    People complaining about gear carried, you're in the wrong game. R1 is literally a mage with 1 purple piece.. I'm sure if you're bad and just eating all the damage from a fully-geared player with nothing on you, ya its going to seem a little unfair but if you're playing properly, gear isn't going to matter much outside of a slight statistical %+

    Most of the people complaining about the gear are from the Korean ms2 pvp scene and know how bad the game is without the pvp set, it's not an invalid concern by any means. Gear makes a huge difference, whether you care to believe it or not.
    KrowieFriendshipFernandTheCurrySauseBandit
  • MinxMinx
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 330
    Posts: 4
    Member
    Blade and soul has good esports Arena PVP
  • suchalameosuchalameo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 500
    Posts: 15
    Member
    Axy wrote: »
    Most of the people complaining about the gear are from the Korean ms2 pvp scene and know how bad the game is without the pvp set, it's not an invalid concern by any means. Gear makes a huge difference, whether you care to believe it or not.

    Ya but this isn't Korean MS2, which makes this an invalid concern because NA is different because there is a PvP set therefore making gear not a huge difference. Also referring to the FACT that R1 has been a wizard with basically no gear at all. Don't mess up this game's pvp because you suck and need something to blame..
  • AxyAxy
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,020
    Posts: 85
    Member
    suchalameo wrote: »
    Axy wrote: »
    Most of the people complaining about the gear are from the Korean ms2 pvp scene and know how bad the game is without the pvp set, it's not an invalid concern by any means. Gear makes a huge difference, whether you care to believe it or not.

    Ya but this isn't Korean MS2, which makes this an invalid concern because NA is different because there is a PvP set therefore making gear not a huge difference. Also referring to the FACT that R1 has been a wizard with basically no gear at all. Don't mess up this game's pvp because you suck and need something to blame..

    Yeah dude, adding in a set that's meant for pvp is totally gonna mess up the games pvp. Jesus Christ you're a brainlet LOL
  • WarameWarame
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,820
    Posts: 57
    Member
    PVP should be about skills only. About how good you are controlling your character vs other people.
    This gear based version is terrible.

    Solutions:

    - Balance all classes and remove ALL gear stats. (Best option for me)
    or
    - Balance all classes and add PVP only gears that EVERYONE can easily obtain. These gears should exist just as a way for players to customize their characters to add a little bit of strategy/styles for their gameplay.
    or
    - Create 2 modes. Ranked non gear based and ranked gear based. (I don't recommend this because it will create longer queues for both modes. But it is at least better than NO non gear mode)
    TylerTheDragon
  • SaintoneSaintone
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 4,365
    Posts: 88
    Member
    As many of you have heard, Korean MapleStory 2 has PVP gear, unlike the other version of Chinese MapleStory 2 that does not. I've written it before in the past, but PVP gear does a great job of equalizing the playing field as much as possible. There is still some gear skew however, as those with super high enhanced PVP gear do have a 10-20% advantage over those who only have moderately enchanted gear there.

    However recently, the newest content in Korea introduced PVE gear so strong that the PVP gear was usurped by it, even factoring PVP stats into account. This was not the case prior to the latest content update, where PVP gear was always stronger.

    In Chinese MapleStory 2 and Global MapleStory 2, the damage numbers are significantly higher than the Korean version. Almost all weapons, armors, boss HP are tons higher, for no reason other than for the sake of.

    It would be the same effect as the latest KR update by implementing the PVP gear as is. For them to implement PVP gear, they will have to wait for appropriate rebalances to the existing PVP gear for higher numbers.

    That being said, I hope they pump up the PVP attack and PVP defense on those items. Those are special stats that only work in PVP. Might as well make it so strong that no PVE item will ever overshadow PVP items moving forward, especially with orange tier items on the way.
    AxyKakkisLindelyImpalaPUAFernandAlzack
  • AxyAxy
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,020
    Posts: 85
    Member
    Saintone wrote: »
    As many of you have heard, Korean MapleStory 2 has PVP gear, unlike the other version of Chinese MapleStory 2 that does not. I've written it before in the past, but PVP gear does a great job of equalizing the playing field as much as possible. There is still some gear skew however, as those with super high enhanced PVP gear do have a 10-20% advantage over those who only have moderately enchanted gear there.

    However recently, the newest content in Korea introduced PVE gear so strong that the PVP gear was usurped by it, even factoring PVP stats into account. This was not the case prior to the latest content update, where PVP gear was always stronger.

    In Chinese MapleStory 2 and Global MapleStory 2, the damage numbers are significantly higher than the Korean version. Almost all weapons, armors, boss HP are tons higher, for no reason other than for the sake of.

    It would be the same effect as the latest KR update by implementing the PVP gear as is. For them to implement PVP gear, they will have to wait for appropriate rebalances to the existing PVP gear for higher numbers.

    That being said, I hope they pump up the PVP attack and PVP defense on those items. Those are special stats that only work in PVP. Might as well make it so strong that no PVE item will ever overshadow PVP items moving forward, especially with orange tier items on the way.

    I havent played the Korean version for quite some time, but that's disappointing, hope they balance the pvp gear so that it remains the best set for pvp, and don't neglect the pvp community even if it is small.

  • UberchaoUberchao
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,335
    Posts: 27
    Member
    You've got a fun game with a fun combat system to make for fun PvP. Don't screw this up by allowing such gear disparity between players who just want to have fun.
    Denna
  • WatchGintamaWatchGintama
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 3,460
    Posts: 96
    Member
    edited 2:40PM July 22, 2018
    sOj7D64.gif

    fun and interactive gameplay
    M0USEFernandWarameDennaRainbowYiffJinxpTheChaosLegend
This discussion has been closed.