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[Feedback] Hard Adventure Dungeons

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  • PsYDaniPsYDani
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 780
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    Kats wrote: »
    Fire Dragon: Good introduction to Hard Adventures, takes a bit more than a normal dungeon, him running around is super annoying and I hope you won't make more bosses with this, it's not fun to run around after the boss.

    Balrog: I haven't cleared it yet but one thing I can say is, his attacks have disgusting hitboxes, getting hit when he's swinging his weapon even if you're behind him is BS. The shout hits you no matter what, only way to avoid it is predicting it.

    That is precisely whats wrong with him, including the instant attacks.
    His axe swings are also undodgeable, the only way to counter is to dodge when he faces you.
  • VaelVael
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,560
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    I feel that the difficulty of Hard Adventure dugneons is absolutely okay right now. They do a lot of damage, however they are still very clearable without dying.

    My only gripe is the attribute scaling - currently the "Fair Fight" debuff makes it so that you do NORMALIZED damage on lower tier bosses (I assume its based on Gear Score, but I have not tested it thoroughly.) This makes it very hard to carry newer players or friends, because your gear that you worked hard for gets normalized down to base levels.
    PsYDaniHatManMarksmanBryanSoulXCloud
  • MarksmanBryanMarksmanBryan
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 2,475
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    Back again for another post. I do not understand the “fair fight debuff” in the hard adventure dungeons. To be honest, I do not like this debuff anywhere in the game, but I can understand why certain mobs (elite bosses, specifically) have it implemented. I don’t think world bosses should have this debuff either with how few people actually show up to fight them.

    This content, however, should not. Why am I doing roughly the same damage to pyrros with legendary gear as when I ran it for the very first time with a mk 52 bow? This doesn’t make sense. I want to help my friends and other players but I have actually refused requests because I am put on the same level as a new player in these dungeons. Balrog has a little more wiggle room but I still don’t do full damage in there.

    When damage is normalized, speed of the clear depends on how well people can play their class, and most people are still learning how to play since it is so new to the NA market. This makes clear times way slower than it should be. I do not appreciate being penalized for trying to help people.
    PsYDanimelatoninlolSolismsongyKappaDrewHatManNeanDriBotty
  • MikanBoxMikanBox
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,250
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    I personally thing hard dungeons should be 5 or 6 man instead. The current issue is for more complex bosses that "require" certain members. the issue that arrises is: if you are a "required" class, gaining entry to said type of raid becomes a lot harder. Also due to the tighter party size, without extra party members to take the slack, If some1 disconnects, the left over members are left with a horrible time.

    example: Balrog
    party minimum(assuming not using revives): Priest, Knight, Ranged Physical + "extra"
    The issue comes for the "extra". Its Highly logical, and even beneficial to select extra priest, knight, ranged physical.
    So classes like: Wizard(ranged elemental. can't kill mobs), Berzerker(early game, can't tank balrog, no ranged attacks) will have issues getting into said parties due to the size restrictions.

    Future example: "magnus"
    not really a party minimum, But the way the raid works sorta ask for 5 or more
    Part 1: There are Plenty of mobs around that hurt + debuff party members. having to kill all the mobs with just 4 would be kinda tricky..... and the "magic missiles" from the mobs is actually spread out among the party. so the less party members there are on the top fighting area, the more damage the left over people take.
    part 2: he will summon two clones, during this part I always recommend: A least 2 priests, 2 dps, 1 aggro. The clones go to either side of the map, and must be dispatched, and magnus stays in the center. You need a priest to go to either side to keep the dps alive while they defeat the clone. and u want some1 in the center to distract magnus so he doesn't Wave slash either side(stuns+heavy damage)
    part 3: not much to complain about here.
    PsYDaniZycon
  • AG_GGAG_GG
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 490
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    I don't really feel like logging in and doing anything due to being capped. A lot of players such as myself play these MMO's to grind gear and progress their characters. Why limit that? If there's a cap, it should definitely be higher than 30/w. That's just way too low.
    SolisPsYDaniBotty
  • hotslimehotslime
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 220
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    The cap should either be removed or increased by a lot. There is nothing interesting to do at level 50 besides the dungeons imo I just log off after I hit the cap lol
    SolisPsYDani
  • RedvannRedvann
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 650
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    I don’t mind the gating, however the RNG of normals is too high, meaning that chances are you don’t get the required gear your first week, contrary to for example your guild, and you can’t progress further and fall decently far behind. Of course this can be bought on the black market, but I’m not sure this is the best game design solution. A currency system that dedicates only to epic weapons that you receive from 20-30 (25) normals could fix this. E.g. each lvl 50 adv. dungeon drops 5 epic gear blobs. These can be used at blob vender to buy 1 epic weapon 2-handed for 150 blobs and 1-hands for 100 blobs. The cost difference is so that everyone gets 1 epic, and those with two 1-hands don’t feel unfairly treated. This way everyone has a guaranteed way of making it through to further content without falling behind and feeling remorse. Make it undismantable, untradable, bind on pickup, whatever you need, so this can’t be abused through several characters or something.

    Also a toggle button would be great! Scenario: I’ve just geared up for hard dungeons, but want to help my guildies reach their target too. The problem is that I still have 5 runs left today that I don’t want to spend on normals. If I could choose to toggle off dungeon rewards, we could all have a nice social experience. If not, I choose to wait, get fomo (fear of missing out) while my guild mates are bonding and having fun together, and I then get upset with the game. Please just let me help my mates in gearing up without losing potential hard dungeon runs.

    There is also the issue that dungeons you are required to do for the epic quest also takes away from potential dungeon runs at lvl 50.

    A potentially best solution that I thought out, would be having extra dungeon runs being rewarded from doing other activities in the game. Since burning out comes mainly from repetitive activity, with this solution you can extend the average player play time without the fear of losing them. Extending play time = more personal investment = $ and longetivity. I’m not really sure how this could be done, maybe though daily mission you can be rewarded a dungeon clear voucher or something. Maybe through exploration goal? This is something max limit, so that you the system can’t go on forever, but has high use early in the game. Again, I’m not sure what iteration is best in terms of enjoyment, that’s sorta up to you game designers who knows this stuff.
  • AlylioAlylio
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,505
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    edited 8:17AM July 24, 2018
    GREAT ******* JOB ON THE HARD DUNGEON, THEY'RE BOTH AMAZING!
    Honestly, this is the first time in a long while I actually had fun playing dungeons in a MMO.

    Fire Dragon:
    I have nothing to say here, the entire dungeon is well designed and implemented.
    The boss and his attacks and learnable and fair.
    The entire dungeon is doable with any class you'd like, not giving ranged/healers any advantage over melee's.

    Balrog:
    I love running this dungeon on my thief, the only problem I have is that you have to have a ranged DPS in order to deal with the little fire-breathing dragons that show up later on in the fight.
    Besides this he is extremely fair, his pattern is learnable and easy to dodge if you get some practice.

    I would like to suggest not changing anything besides giving melee's a way to dmg the fire-breathing dragons I mentioned earlier in my post.
    Again: Great job on these dungeons.

    Edit: Remove the weekly limit tho, it's garbage.
    Kewkkybolder_taste
  • MusicianValkyrMusicianValkyr
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 200
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    At the moment we only have 2 dungeons of hard difficulty, in my opinion as a knight these can be at first somewhat difficult because you may not have the gear needed to play normally (take into account that minimum level does not mean that the Dungeon is that level, if not from that level you can enter) which force players to keep trying again and again until they can be able to clean the dungeon, in my opinion do the dragon with only 4 people can be difficult at first if none s Abe that is what is happening even, I understand that in the CBT1 that dungeon was for 10 people but also should not be classified as a raid, for example in my guild we are 30 people, but of those 30 there are only a lot of 3 or 4 knights for which to be a Of the classes less played and because the game does not have a system characteristic of taunt or aggro, which leaves us in a position that sometimes even low levels prefer to have better DPS on your computer than someone who could hold some other Ataq UEs or provide support (even the priest do more damage than we lol) so it would be more than anything that at least in these high level dungeons the concept of taunt or aggro can be added.
  • SolisSolis
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 695
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    I think something needs to be done about Barlog. During phase 3, it is almost impossible to not die because of the one shot mechanic. I'm having to jump into the lava and then jump back. Hp pots (unless you have CASH SHOP ITEM) can not save you. I can dodge the rocks, still get one shotted during the phase even at full hp. Then I have to pay merits to come back up as the phase last more than 3 effects. So even when I make it to that phase without dying, I still end up using merits (wish is not okay). Second, when I'm killing the dragons (I'm an archer), I can't see through Barlog. So, during later stages of the fight, I can't even dodge effectively on the yellow rocks or see whe he's charging. I have to rely on my team in discord to tell me he's charging that way because the camera doesn't go out that far. I'd like to address that. No, I don't think he's "too hard"; instead, I like the difficulty, but would like to see a few changes based on sight issues and last phase issue.
    RedvannRDuoc
  • RDuocRDuoc
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    edited 8:01AM July 25, 2018
    Most of the concerns have been made clear already. This is the biggest issue for me and I will repeat it just like most have here.

    Mechanics that leave you with no options to avoid damage and having to rely on specific classes such as knight to block or priest to heal through is just terrible.

    - Temple of Immortals Balrogs stun roar and final phase falling rocks into roar that wipes most people if Tristan does not stun (RnG). Need knight to block in order to prevent damage taken here.
    - Fire Dragon Pyrros start of phase 2 where he begins with a full map fire breath straight away. (sure this dungeon is pretty balanced and can be done by most players, but why should we have to be taking damage without any ways to dodge an attack? Either have a priest or potions to heal, but it just an unskilled way to play having to face tank)

    These problems make parties having to seek out specific classes every run which gates most other classes as they struggle more to enter parties. It also not enjoyable if you do not have these solutions with you in the dungeon runs.
    Piliken
  • HatManHatMan
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 885
    Posts: 8
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    Like some people already said, there is no reason for "Fair Fight" on hard mode dungeons and it is really frustating. Why get better gear if your damage won't even get better on endgame content? And I don't like the pay to win aspect of merits reviving. In my opinion reviving vouchers and merets respawn should be removed. 3 respawns are good and challenging enough.
    PsYDaniAkuma524Qaradoxical
  • BinarySprintBinarySprint
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 200
    Post: 1
    Member
    edited 2:40PM July 26, 2018
    Something that is really annoying about dungeons is not being able to rejoin after a brief connection drop. (I'm writing this message, stuck at the entrance, whilst waiting for my 3 party members to complete the fire dragon)

    http://prntscr.com/kbhlj7

    I just want to participate but I can't because my connection cut out for 30 seconds.

    I hope this can get addressed. Its incredibly boring sitting around doing nothing for over 10 mins.

    Edit: Also got full rewards and A rank for doing nothing http://prntscr.com/kbhncq
  • HiyateHiyate
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 765
    Posts: 21
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    edited 6:33AM July 27, 2018
    I've been having a blast doing the fire dragon. Took me four runs to not die once.

    While very chaotic first there is a lot of telegraphing from the boss which makes it feel fair (I still have a hard time seeing the difference between laser and bombs though). Learned a lot from watching more experienced players in my party as well.

    What I think is bad is how good the loot from these are. They really shouldn't drop that many epics, that can even be dismantled to make epics for you class. I went from being OHKO from most attacks to not being OHKO from any attack in a few runs.
    It ruins the whole sense of progression since I got full epic gear in one evening (10 runs), and it's even worse how good they are (which is the real problem). They give too much room for mistakes. My most fun run of this dungeon was probably my first where I died 10+ times. Now I can get hit by the laser and live... (I'm not really punished for playing badly which means I have no incentive to play better).

    Either nerf epics or don't give out that many. A drop rate of 2 (class specific) epics per 10 dungeons would be fine (i.e. 20% chance for a class specific), and nothing else. Remove the non-class specific drops that can't be sold/traded and remove the chests you get from them (replace them with blues and/or (chaos) onyx crystals or something). Especially since this is the first hard dungeon you will likely unlock.
  • GarfunckelGarfunckel
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 720
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    Overall the two hard adventure dungeons, that have been shown are both fun and interesting.
    The only thing I have a problem with is the "Fair Fight" debuff. Will explain this more afterwards

    Fire Dragon: A good introduction to the "Hard Raids" or "Adventures". It isn't to crazy hard nor is it easy enough to be like "Okay this isn't worth anything"
    If people know what they are doing it's possible to do without a healer which if you're playing well can be a positive, more DPS and not much need for a healer. For newer players that just started to do the dungeon, it's in a good spot even with a healer. Learn the "mechanics" and whittle him down through the course of 7-10 mins, depending on how things go.


    Balrog: He hits like a truck. From looking at videos and personally playing in the Chinese server, our version hits quite hard. I will admit that learning how he moves and his pattern is relatively easy to get used to, but the punishment for it is a bit over the top at the moment. Overall it's a fun fight and rather "simple" to see how his pattern works, but for a newer person getting into trying Balrog, it'll give them a big fright.

    The Fair Fight debuff though, should be removed from the Hard Adventures and even the normal adventures, to be completely honest. I'm sure many have spoken about it and I'll say it once more. Why enchant gear just to have it be completely useless in these "older" raids when we get past them. For helping newer players when you've done this many a time, you can 1. carry them while 2. Helping them understand what to do while still being able to destroy the boss.
    Sure some can say this is flawed in where I say, Carry while still helping them understand what to do.
    The reason I said it like that is because you can do both. 1. Give them time to understand what is going on, explain it. And 2. You can still beat the boss within say 2 mins (if gear is super strong) to allow them to finish in a timely manner. It has no impact overall and still allows for a fun game. So the Fair Fight Debuff, should be removed.
    PsYDaniHatMan
  • LucisLucis
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    Hiyate wrote: »
    I've been having a blast doing the fire dragon. Took me four runs to not die once.

    While very chaotic first there is a lot of telegraphing from the boss which makes it feel fair (I still have a hard time seeing the difference between laser and bombs though). Learned a lot from watching more experienced players in my party as well.

    What I think is bad is how good the loot from these are. They really shouldn't drop that many epics, that can even be dismantled to make epics for you class. I went from being OHKO from most attacks to not being OHKO from any attack in a few runs.
    It ruins the whole sense of progression since I got full epic gear in one evening (10 runs), and it's even worse how good they are (which is the real problem). They give too much room for mistakes. My most fun run of this dungeon was probably my first where I died 10+ times. Now I can get hit by the laser and live... (I'm not really punished for playing badly which means I have no incentive to play better).

    Either nerf epics or don't give out that many. A drop rate of 2 (class specific) epics per 10 dungeons would be fine (i.e. 20% chance for a class specific), and nothing else. Remove the non-class specific drops that can't be sold/traded and remove the chests you get from them (replace them with blues and/or onyx crystals or something). Especially since this is the first hard dungeon you will likely unlock.

    About that...

    you were just lucky

    I have to keep going 3 days straight on the dungeon to get full epic
  • LucisLucis
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,060
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    edited 6:14AM July 27, 2018
    Remove the cap, please.

    I've hit the 30/30 and now there is nothing to do anymore I don't even bother to log in

    Don't get me wrong the mini-games/fishing/dressing-up is really fun but I've done all that and while fishing and doing mini-games is still fun doing only that all day
    isn't my objective when I log in the game


    Nerf balrog or at least fix his hitbox
    Dodge is extremely hard as berserker because even if I am behind him, I've still get hit by his attacks
    I couldn't get to phase 3 that all people are complaining since I could only do 1 run before my cap hit 30/0

    again remove the cap pls
    Akuma524
  • HiyateHiyate
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    edited 6:34AM July 27, 2018
    Lucis wrote: »
    About that...

    you were just lucky

    I have to keep going 3 days straight on the dungeon to get full epic

    What? I consistently get around 5 epics per run (at rank A, which isn't hard to get once you've learned how the boss work). The drop rate definitely seem to be tied to the rank you get. Do you normally tank out the attacks and get a lower rank? I can see this being more common for melee characters. (Curious if there is something to my theory). In three days I would get an average of 120 epics.
    Once you dismantle them 4 epics give a guaranteed piece for your class (through chest fragments). It's even your choice which armor piece you want to have! In theory you just need 20 epic armors for any class to get a full armor set for your class. That should be doable in 10 runs (equivalent to 30-50 epic gear). You will definitely get a ton of epic weapons for your class before that though.

    To be fair, I still don't have any epic ring, belt or cape. But now I only take 50% of my HP from attacks that previously OHKO me so my point still stands how crazy good epics are and how common they are (most defense comes from suit/top/bottom and hat/helmet).
  • SaintoneSaintone
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    Drop rate of rewards is 100% not tied to your rank. Tested and confirmed, numerous times, across many versions of the game. Your rank has no influence on anything. Just a performance indicator.

    I see nothing wrong with "needing" a specific class to clear content safely. But that being said more experienced parties managed to defeat the raid without a Knight. Some did it without Priest for the first clear, and some did it without both opting for a four DPS approach.

    My entry into Balrog when we cleared it the first time as a Knight I was able to comfortably survive 3 hits and move to it's back, with nothing more than +6 armor top from Pyrros Fard.

    I don't like the Fair Fight debuff but I definitely notice I am significantly stronger now using a legendary weapon in these raids compared to when I was using highly enhanced raid weapon from Balrog. Even in a one Priest one Knight set-up both encounters have been reduced to 5-minute clear times. There does appear to be some scaling to it akin to a % debuff rather than a hard limit on damage cap. I have little qualms with this system if it is true considering the path we're headed in extreme damage numbers in the future.
    HiyateSubglacious
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    edited 8:53AM July 27, 2018
    These hard dungeons aren't meant for 4 people, especially balrog.

    From what I understand, the limit was dropped to 4 people max because people complained that pyrros was too easy in the first CBT? Well yeah, because pyrros IS easy once you learn it, and it's clear-able with most parties, only requirement might be a priest for the start of the second phase but the rest of the slots can be whatever and the boss can be easily cleared with no deaths.

    This is not the case for balrog. If you're not a ranged melee, or a priest/knight, then you'll have a very hard time getting a party. I'm a thief and in 100% seriousness, the hardest part about balrog for thief is finding a working party that will actually take you, unless you have friends that are willing to squeeze you in. Like 4/5 times when I use party search for balrog, everyone will just leave because the party composition isn't right, and part of it will be my fault for even being in there and taking up a space. I've actually been kicked from a party for being a thief and not one of the classes that people actually want for balrog.

    4 people is way too limiting and it's ridiculous to force this restriction on us just because people complained about pyrros, one of the easiest "hard dungeon" bosses there is, being too easy.

    Edit: Oh yeah, and like others have mentioned, the hitbox for balrogs attacks, seriously, fix that. The timing for the hitbox is off and comes out earlier than it should, and the thing is massive. I can deal with the hitbox being huge but the timing for it is just senseless. It only makes the fight artificially harder, and not in a fun way.
    bolder_taste
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