[Thief] Feedback on Skills

ScyroseScyrose
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edited 3:40PM May 20, 2018 in Thief
I didn't get to play thief too much during the beta, so I'm only going to be focusing on 2 skills. The other skills I didn't really use at all or get to try out in time, so I can't really say anything about them.


Double Stab

This skill seems incredibly useless, the recovering of spirit and getting possible movement speed don't seem all that worth it. I never ran out of spirit and the dmg is god awful, it is heavily out shined by poison edge, not only that, but poison edge also gets extra dmg from the "Survival of the Fittest" skill, and on top of all of this, with poison edge you can move forward, which works as a nice combination with the dash skill. So this skill currently is only worth it to get poison vial and maybe Survival of the Fittest (Can't remember if the latter required Double Stab).

Quick Step
This one is also a useless skill more or less. Most mobs and bosses hit forward and have rather long range attacks, which makes jumping backwards completely pointless, you're better off using poison edge's forward dash + your normal dash to avoid taking dmg and escaping near death situations whilst dealing dmg to said mobs/boss. It would be much better to just make your normal dash skill into a 3 time use dash forward skill, that way you can more efficiently dodge attacks, avoid taking dmg and escape near death situations (I know I just repeated myself) and on top of everything you could now come up with a better, more useful skill to replace Quick Step.

Comments

  • DrYoshiyahuDrYoshiyahu
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    edited 7:05AM May 20, 2018
    You should move this to the Thief subclass.

    As for your criticisms, the level one skills are not supposed to be useful. Every class has one, and most of them don't get used unless the class is out of spirit. Think of it as the class' basic attack. Seriously, you can just unbind the basic attack from Ctrl and X and put Double Stab there instead.

    It's not supposed to compete with the other attacks, it's just something to do while you recover spirit. I don't know if you got to level 34, but once you're using Haste, you're going to use a lot more spirit.

    Quick Step is just nice to have as an option. Put one point into it and just keep it on the hotkeys in case you suddenly decide that you do want to dash backwards, especially if you've got stamina but don't have spirit. EDIT: And if Mind Stealer is on cooldown.
  • Xana8UXana8U
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    edited 7:10AM May 20, 2018
    I can see that you didn't play thief too much, Most of Thiefs damage is based on double stab, you can keep up with mana consumption if you use poison edge only since it's such a slow skill.
    Thiefs main idea of gameplay combos at least for what i got from the beta:
    Cunning>Vial(doesn't break cunning)>5x poison edge(for 5 stacks of poison)>Balkan edge(until low on mana)>double stab until mana full/if cunning is gained during this, use it on vial and poison edge> if mana full but no cunning use cunning skill to continue poison stacks>back to balkan edge(Stabity stab)
    If mobbing, you can just spam blade dancer and keep up poison stacks,.
    Also using mind stealer is required in both situtions can be useful depending on if you need gap closer or to move to the other side of the mob for another poison or to move away from a lot of incoming skills
    DrYoshiyahuTheCurrySauseBanditScyrosebolder_tasteLæfyTylerTheDragon
  • DanDKDanDK
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    Seriously, you can just unbind the basic attack from Ctrl and X and put Double Stab there instead.

    Unfortunately, every time you switch to another (saved or not) build and back again, all bindings reset, so remapping them won't work unless you never plan on changing them again or can be bothered to change them every time.
  • ZyconZycon
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    edited 10:52PM May 20, 2018
    You should move this to the Thief subclass.

    As for your criticisms, the level one skills are not supposed to be useful. Every class has one, and most of them don't get used unless the class is out of spirit. Think of it as the class' basic attack. Seriously, you can just unbind the basic attack from Ctrl and X and put Double Stab there instead.

    Please don't comment if you don't know the importance of skills. Last thing we need is another person who doesn't know how to play the class to comment about the class.

    Xana8U wrote: »
    I can see that you didn't play thief too much, Most of Thiefs damage is based on double stab, you can keep up with mana consumption if you use poison edge only since it's such a slow skill.
    Thiefs main idea of gameplay combos at least for what i got from the beta:
    Cunning>Vial(doesn't break cunning)>5x poison edge(for 5 stacks of poison)>Balkan edge(until low on mana)>double stab until mana full/if cunning is gained during this, use it on vial and poison edge> if mana full but no cunning use cunning skill to continue poison stacks>back to balkan edge(Stabity stab)
    If mobbing, you can just spam blade dancer and keep up poison stacks,.
    Also using mind stealer is required in both situtions can be useful depending on if you need gap closer or to move to the other side of the mob for another poison or to move away from a lot of incoming skills

    This rotation is wrong on so many levels. Felt like I should immediately point out how bad our mobbing skill is and how you shouldn't have any points in it or the skill prior. Thief is desperate for skill points and throwing them around every skill you have is inefficient. We are already a bad class as is, let's not make it worse.

    Scyrose wrote: »
    Double Stab
    This skill seems incredibly useless, the recovering of spirit and getting possible movement speed don't seem all that worth it. I never ran out of spirit and the dmg is god awful, it is heavily out shined by poison edge, not only that, but poison edge also gets extra dmg from the "Survival of the Fittest" skill, and on top of all of this, with poison edge you can move forward, which works as a nice combination with the dash skill. So this skill currently is only worth it to get poison vial and maybe Survival of the Fittest (Can't remember if the latter required Double Stab).

    Quick Step
    This one is also a useless skill more or less. Most mobs and bosses hit forward and have rather long range attacks, which makes jumping backwards completely pointless, you're better off using poison edge's forward dash + your normal dash to avoid taking dmg and escaping near death situations whilst dealing dmg to said mobs/boss. It would be much better to just make your normal dash skill into a 3 time use dash forward skill, that way you can more efficiently dodge attacks, avoid taking dmg and escape near death situations (I know I just repeated myself) and on top of everything you could now come up with a better, more useful skill to replace Quick Step.

    As for you. Quick step is mobility. You have 1 point in it and it does its job. Some bosses have combo attacks where you may dodge back and forth and you can't do that if your only dash is on a 3 second cool down. Another thing to note is relying on poison edge's dash is completely useless and makes for a lot of inconsistencies. Not only because the timing could potentially be awful, but because the skill itself isn't even good for dps.

    Double stab is also one of the most important skills in the game for thief. If you dislike it, you should either learn to love it, or switch classes because you'll use it about 40% of the time you're attacking. The damage isn't great but the passive "movement speed" is what's special about it. It's not just movement speed but it's an upgrade to your other skills. I won't go through the list but I should definitely say that balkan does twice the damage when cunning is activated. If you rotate between the two, your damage can potentially be 1.3-1.5x the damage depending on luck (not the stat but rng luck).

    So now you have an understanding about thief. I hope everyone learned something today.
    ScyroseLæfy
  • Xana8UXana8U
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    Zycon wrote: »
    Xana8U wrote: »
    I can see that you didn't play thief too much, Most of Thiefs damage is based on double stab, you can keep up with mana consumption if you use poison edge only since it's such a slow skill.
    Thiefs main idea of gameplay combos at least for what i got from the beta:
    Cunning>Vial(doesn't break cunning)>5x poison edge(for 5 stacks of poison)>Balkan edge(until low on mana)>double stab until mana full/if cunning is gained during this, use it on vial and poison edge> if mana full but no cunning use cunning skill to continue poison stacks>back to balkan edge(Stabity stab)
    If mobbing, you can just spam blade dancer and keep up poison stacks,.
    Also using mind stealer is required in both situtions can be useful depending on if you need gap closer or to move to the other side of the mob for another poison or to move away from a lot of incoming skills

    This rotation is wrong on so many levels. Felt like I should immediately point out how bad our mobbing skill is and how you shouldn't have any points in it or the skill prior. Thief is desperate for skill points and throwing them around every skill you have is inefficient. We are already a bad class as is, let's not make it worse.

    Could you give more feedback on the wrong rotation please?

    You can make different skill pages for different situations so put the mobbing skill there, found it useful in larger pulls after kiting a huge bunch together(checked dps). But have to agree with you on the fact that you shouldn't use skill points on useless skills, but still to remind, making several trees is a possibility
  • ZyconZycon
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    Xana8U wrote: »
    Could you give more feedback on the wrong rotation please?

    You can make different skill pages for different situations so put the mobbing skill there, found it useful in larger pulls after kiting a huge bunch together(checked dps). But have to agree with you on the fact that you shouldn't use skill points on useless skills, but still to remind, making several trees is a possibility

    The rotation is incorrect for a lot of reasons but there are 3 main ones.

    1. Poison edge isn’t a skill a thief will use at any stage of the game (besides one that I talk about in question 2 however I still don’t use it). It’s been proven that poison thief builds are outright worse than traditional flask+double+Balkan rotations. The skill itself isn’t too bad but it doesn’t fit in with our rotation. You’d be better off using Balkan with the cunning proc to increase damage since you can use Balkan almost (if not) 5 times within 1 full use of poison edge. It should also be mentioned that bosses move and getting all 5 stacks won’t even be a thing in a lot of cases.

    2. If you have mobbing issues, you’re playing thief correctly. Like I said, thieves are skill point hungry and those 3 minor skill points to get the mobbing skill could potential increase your bossing damage by a few %s which is more important. I should also say that poison edge will be at rank 6 because you need it for guile. That is a good enough mobbing skill as is if you really mob that much. Combine that with kick and surprise and you suddenly have a mobbing + burst rotation.

    3. This is most important since you don’t know the rotation at all. I’ll break down the thief rotation here and be sure to note which skills are used and why. Something I noticed in your build is that kick and surprise attack aren’t used even though they should be used (at least kick) immediately off cooldown.

    Haste > vial > kick > surprise attack > vial > Balkan (until 30sp) > double stab > balkan immediately if cunning procs || Balkan until 70sp if no cunning > kick (off cooldown) > surprise (off cooldown) > vial (reapply poison for guile bonus damage)

    Extra:
    1. Get in the habit of using Balkan before kick when it gets off cooldown because of the chance a cunning proc will happen on the last double stab attack.
    2. Surprise can cancel out kick’s attack if done too quickly so separate them a bit timing wise. They should still both be used immediately though.
    3. SP management is a requirement. You need to constantly be aware that if you don’t have the sp for Balkan or vial, you’re going to use a basic attack which is just awful and a huge waste of dps. You will have to manage your rotation, bosses attacks, your movement/positioning, and your sp while in a fight.
    4. We are consistent damage dealers, not burst, so understand that our rotation needs to be maintained throughout all stages of the boss fight. Sometimes it can seem impossible since our range is so short but that’s just the life of a thief.

    I’m on my phone right now so my formatting and word choice probably isn’t the best but I’m too lazy to read this over. Have fun with thief if you still want to play. I wouldn’t recommend it though.
    ScyroseLissom
  • Xana8UXana8U
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    Thanks for the feedback. Will look more into this.
  • LissomLissom
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    edited 10:58PM May 23, 2018
    Zycon wrote: »
    (snipped)

    Since you seem to be one of the few people around that actually have experience with Thief on KMS2, would you mind sharing your level 50 skill build? Everything you've written up here is very insightful and helps reaffirm things that I personally gathered from playing in cbt, so I really appreciate it.


  • Xana8UXana8U
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  • ZyconZycon
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    Lissom wrote: »
    Zycon wrote: »
    (snipped)

    Since you seem to be one of the few people around that actually have experience with Thief on KMS2, would you mind sharing your level 50 skill build? Everything you've written up here is very insightful and helps reaffirm things that I personally gathered from playing in cbt, so I really appreciate it.


    Uh... It differs a lot between bosses. Level 50 isn't a very high level in the first place either. For salamander though, my build was https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/444188913548918785/444997820861382657/20180512_160209_00.jpg It was the best for me when it came to the first stage and is relaxing compared to the all out thief build I'm used to (I'll have to eventually go back to it for other bosses though -_-). Be aware, this is level 50 and purely for salamander. The more you level and the more skill points you get, the more this changes.
    bolder_taste
  • TodasTodas
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    edited 4:17AM June 14, 2018
    Maybe things are different in KMS, I don't know. But I found that Haste was essentially useless and that poison was far more useful than it's being given credit for. Fire Dragon doesn't stand still nearly long enough for anything resembling an optimized rotation to go off, Haste drains your SP like crazy which prevents you from using your most powerful moves, and poison is, contrary to what you're saying, ABSOLUTELY the most reliable and least positioning-reliant way to apply damage.

    I'm fine with the idea that a build using Somersault and Surprise Attack could probably outdps a poison-based build thanks to its high poke, but I don't think it's practical advice for 99% of the community. Again, things could be different with slight changes in game content, and I'm sure that sort of build shines in the second half of Fire Dragon, for instance, but I hesitate to confidently state that it's just a better build.

    Like, I don't even know about Haste. Just looking at it, I'm losing about 0.3 Vicious Cuts per second just having it up from SP drain. One vicious cuts is ~2-300% damage depending on how you look at it (Cunning triggers, etc). So I'm losing out on 70-100% damage per second using it, so to get a benefit out of it I need to already be doing 200%+ damage per second. And I think it's actually more complicated than that, because of the additive nature of SP gain / loss. Just in testing it seemed like I was doing over twice as many Double Slashes per Vicious Cuts while in Haste compared to not in Haste, and Double Slash doesn't even compare to Vicious Cuts in terms of DPS.

    I notice you're not even using Haste in your Salamander build, which makes me think that advice about rotations and suchlike is basically useless - it's got to vary significantly by boss.
  • ZyconZycon
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    Todas wrote: »
    Maybe things are different in KMS, I don't know. But I found that Haste was essentially useless and that poison was far more useful than it's being given credit for. Fire Dragon doesn't stand still nearly long enough for anything resembling an optimized rotation to go off, Haste drains your SP like crazy which prevents you from using your most powerful moves, and poison is, contrary to what you're saying, ABSOLUTELY the most reliable and least positioning-reliant way to apply damage.

    I'm fine with the idea that a build using Somersault and Surprise Attack could probably outdps a poison-based build thanks to its high poke, but I don't think it's practical advice for 99% of the community. Again, things could be different with slight changes in game content, and I'm sure that sort of build shines in the second half of Fire Dragon, for instance, but I hesitate to confidently state that it's just a better build.

    Like, I don't even know about Haste. Just looking at it, I'm losing about 0.3 Vicious Cuts per second just having it up from SP drain. One vicious cuts is ~2-300% damage depending on how you look at it (Cunning triggers, etc). So I'm losing out on 70-100% damage per second using it, so to get a benefit out of it I need to already be doing 200%+ damage per second. And I think it's actually more complicated than that, because of the additive nature of SP gain / loss. Just in testing it seemed like I was doing over twice as many Double Slashes per Vicious Cuts while in Haste compared to not in Haste, and Double Slash doesn't even compare to Vicious Cuts in terms of DPS.

    I notice you're not even using Haste in your Salamander build, which makes me think that advice about rotations and suchlike is basically useless - it's got to vary significantly by boss.

    Well I did say that it was specifically for salamander, and you're right that rotations and builds are very situational until we are all level 80+ and have points to spare. That's why I felt the need to mention that. There is a more end-game oriented build that I mentioned but didn't go into much detail with because I never took a screenshot. That is a lot more consistent and, although it takes a lot of levels (around 85), it will stay the same regardless of what boss you're killing. It is however extremely difficult to maintain and most people end up quitting thief not only because of the damage, but because of the difficulty.

    Now when it comes the skill haste; if you can use it, you use it. Why? The skill is great. It gives a significant attack speed and movement speed increase on top of a physical attack buff. It also leads into another skill which increases viscous cut's damage even more. It's a good skill. I'd actually say it was OP if thief skills weren't so shitty in scaling. It's just not useful in salamander (specifically the first stage).
  • TodasTodas
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    I don't know, I always saw my DPS go down when I turned Haste on. A lot of game players and designers forget about the idea of "additive statistics", but look at how the SP drain from Haste can affect things. Passively, you gain, what, 4 SP per second? So you regain to full in 25 seconds. Spamming Vicious Cuts costs around 12 SP per second, so you can spam VC for about 4-5 seconds from a full bar (before you hit <28 SP and can't use it again). Then if you want to get back to full SP (you'd actually use a mixture of these strategies for optimal DPS, but just bear with me) you gain roughly 16 SP per second while spamming Double Slash, so you go back up to full SP in 3-4 seconds. But with Haste on, spamming VC costs maybe 20 SP per second and so you only get around 3-4 seconds before you need to recharge, and spamming Double Slash gains 8 SP per second and so takes 8-9 seconds to get back to full.

    So we've gone from 5 seconds of VC and 4 seconds of Double Slash to 4 seconds of VC and 9 seconds of Double Slash. If you say 1 VC is roughly 3 Double Slashes in terms of damage, and I think it's more than that, then you go from 19 "double slashes" in 9 seconds vs. 21 "double slashes" in 13 seconds, which is 2.11 doubles slashes per second vs 1.61, which is a dps loss of 24%. You'd need a dps multiplier of 1.31 just to break even, and Haste only gives that around level 7. And far from being OP, it only gives maybe a 10% boost in damage once it reaches level 10, when all's said and done. There are some factors I'm ignoring here, but overall they don't change that much.

    I'm sure that there's some way to make Haste really good, but I keep running tests and crunching numbers and it never seems worth it to me. I mean, I could grab Meso Guard instead for way fewer points and have an on-demand damage boost that doesn't drain my SP at all. Is a skill that essentially reads "you lose 480 SP, gain 40% dps for a minute" really that good? You can do a lot with that SP.
  • ZyconZycon
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    Todas wrote: »

    I see what you're missing. Something to note is that a lot of our damage comes from the passive of double slash. It double's the damage of vicious cuts. If you do your rotation correctly, your damage should be much higher because you're rotating between VC and DS anyways. I do agree though that if your haste isn't near max level, there's no reason to use it. But I think you're underestimating the amount of attack speed that you get haste alone.