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[Feedback] Combat System

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  • ZelosoroZelosoro
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,445
    Posts: 46
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    edited 8:37AM May 18, 2018
    Played as Knight.
    -Combat: The mechanics are nice, you can freely move and there are various skills that have different useful purposes like shields and defensive buffs/lowering monsters defense/raising your team attack power. Hopefully later on during the game, and with better equips, you are allowed to have more spirit because I kept running out of spirit by spamming my skills in order to do the most damages on bosses.
    -Again, I feel like there should be more diversity in the Maplestory2 skill pool. Basically, with Knight class, you only have two ways, you either go full attack or full defense with defensive skills. I wish there were more options for skills and more roots in the skill tree in order to have more diversity in the classes.
    -The potions do nothing literally! Only Elixirs were useful and were mostly obtainable through questing! Fishing rarely gave you any! I like the usefulness of priests for healing but if you don't have one you are doomed! At least as a knight where you are constantly close combat with high HP and 0 recovery skills your HP drops like crazy and 600-800 potions don't heal you nearly enough as you have 3.5k HP and the bosses do 2.5k damage! And also there is a cooldown on the potions haha. Makes it so that Elixirs potions are more accessible to people. Please!
    -I love that bosses and monsters can actually do really high damage! in Ms1 everything was doing like 1 damage to you, including bosses!
  • AngeStarlightAngeStarlight
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 300
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    Ranger dash uses too much stamina at 4 bars, meaning they can only dash once with no succession. This means that even warrior classes have a better dash than Ranger since they can dash in succession. They can travel further at once and more often.
  • MillnMilln
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,110
    Posts: 45
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    edited 8:08PM May 18, 2018
    This is a very long post. I'm sorry. This is important. No one has to agree with me, but at least hear me.

    I played all but Priest and Ranger.

    Here's the theme of this post: Everything but Thief sucks and has no heart. I want this to be better.

    First, with skill descriptions, these are not helpful.
    - As another user pointed out, there's no indication what a meter means . Although anyone who cares can kinda approximate it after testing what "8m" equates to on the screen, it'll confuse people that don't take the initiative to examine. Suggestion: Rework measurements to one meter per cube for obvious sight approximations, or make it known what a meter will mean to a player.

    - There's not enough to spend the Stamina resource on. What's the point of a whole separate self-regenerating gauge/bar/meter for an MMORPG if only one thing uses it? There's a lot of opportunity here. Suggestion: More Stamina! Give us some choice on whether to or what to use our Stamina on abilities.

    - Percentage damage does not mean anything to anyone if there's no baseline. If i'm to understand that, perhaps, a Basic Attack deals "100% damage" because there is no indication otherwise, that other attacks can be guesstimated based upon my Basic Attack damage. This is not true. Skill 1 of most attacks say something around 70%, definitely less than 100%, but they always end up doing more damage (either just barely or by a wide margin) than Basic attacks. So, we're left thinking that 70% of my damage is this number. Then we're catapulted into 200 and 400%'s that seem to do more damage than if we were to apply the equation to our 70% damage. This helps no one: The people that want to math it out and don't already know the formula are going to be befuddled, and the casual already don't care about the tooltip past seeing a large number. Suggestion: Give us the percentage damage for a basic attack. Make it incredibly clear what number or value the game is taking a percentage of when you apply Skill to a monster. I understand there's an entire damage formula and that the "deals 70% damage" is an approximation and not the direct value, but c'mon throw us something real to understand.

    - Thief Mind Steal when you upgrade using a further down skill in the skill tree is inconsistent. The skill calls itself "Improved Mind Steal" and mentions nothing else. The new hotbar icon calls itself "Mind Steal EX". The orginal skill still calls itself "Mind Steal." The Mind Steal EX tooltip changes its wording to read the appropriate amount of enemies that it will now affect when improved, but it does not update the new percentage damage you can now expect, which is now mega confusing. The icon always reads "40%" regardless of how much I have invested into the Improvement skill to change the damage value. Originally, it does 40% damage (whatever that means... reinforces above), then Improve improves it by 50%. So is it 50% of the 40% or is it cumulative to 90% of damage? And so on and so forth. Level 2 of the skill is 100%. So is it intended to double the damage as (0.40*n) + (0.40*n) or does it now deal 100% of my damage? Wtf does "the skill will be empowered" exactly mean aside from obviously more damage or Somersault now stuns? Suggestion: Rewrite. Give more information about what a skill is supposed to do.

    - At this time, all of the skills are pretty low effort to use. While yes, they still manage to be fun, this allows players to reduce themselves to a sort of vegetative state where they need to pay attention to very little and just hold down whatever key and move sometimes. All of the different skills feel entirely meaningless to choose and differentiate between because they all only do one thing: DAMAGE. There's no point in trying to experiment and find cool and fun builds or even builds that can work well //between two or more players// and players will only try to find what puts the highest number on the screen. This is mindless. There's no activity going on. There's nothing to manage past a "whatever" cooldown or higher consumption of spirit causing you to wait a moment before your next cast. I'm truly falling asleep playing Knight and Berserker, here. Nothing matters. You guys have so much creativity everywhere else in the game: In the world, in the way an avatar can look, in mounts, items, flavor text on tooltips, housing, fishing, music.... you have so many ways people can express themselves in the game, but you throw it all in the bin for combat and everyone can faceplant their nose squarely on their macro key to do their 1 to 3 skills and take a nap, or get one of those drinky-birds and go make a cheese sandwich.

    THAT SAID.........

    Thief is fun. They're very active and show that if you know what you're doing or have something resembling a plan, you can put forth the effort, show you're awake, and really wallop some things while taking little to no damage yourself. Their skill tree shows they are intended to have skills that interact with each other (proccing cunning, dealing more damage to enemies that are poisoned or "exploding" the poison for high damage up front, etc.) and have a "this comes before that" sort of framework that was at least thought about. Other classes don't really have this. While it's lulzy to spin forever as a Berserker because of their Spirit regeneration trait, it's all I need to do, and that's poor. Suggestion: Check out games like SoulWorker, Final Fantasy 14, World of Warcraft just to name only three, where they use varying methods to keep your previous skills meaningful and used throughout your entire playtime. Idea: Make skills do more and more things as you level them up past just damage increases such as every few uses, the skill has increased area of effect damage. Perhaps increase max levels of skills and give them bonuses to milestones. Like on Level 5, this skill does an extra cool thing each time like now this attack conjures a phantom that performs the skill again. Stuff like that.

    - What a monster can do is incredibly uninspired. What I can expect from a monster: A basic attack. What I can expect from a boss/elite/field monster: some AoE that I might need to be mildly concerned about and perhaps move sideways a block or two, if don't feel like taking a slap on the wrist. What I can expect from a raid boss: A tedious, meaningless mechanic and small movements. I feel like i'm back in 2002. The vast majority of enemies one can challenge in this game are nothing special and have no impact on what my plan is. I don't have to watch out for anything, they have no special skills; they just run at me and hit me with a basic move. Now, I did notice that some of them have point blank aoes or some have ranged attacks, but in the end it's all meaningless when the gap is closed. None of them have any heart. There's no difference between one group of monsters to the next, every area is the same routine, except with higher numbers. There could be wayyyyyyyyy more going on in a boss fight. There could be a lot more things that happen or things to deal with during a fight (from basic monster up to and including raid and world boss level) that would make combat feel so much better. This sucks. To reiterate, there's all this feeling, all this HEART, all this EXPRESSION /// everywhere else /// in the game, but it's all out the window for combat. Monsters aren't interesting.

    In closing, dear moderator, Cuddles, Arwoo, whoever gets the task of sifting through feedback. You're doing a great job.
    I want to make it clear that I did love my time during the Closed Beta Test. I will definitely play full release. I will definitely end up dumping hundreds of dollars on premium currency for cool stuff. If nothing changes, I will only play Thief and hate every minute of it while still having a blast if that makes sense. If nothing changes for combat, the new game charm will wear off in 6 months and I will quit in one to two years.


    DanDKAcukase2D
  • DanDKDanDK
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 31,640
    Posts: 2,332
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    Excerpts from my overall impressions feedback.

    I generally think the classes in this game are far too bland and far from unique. It doesn't feel special to do anything because everyone has more or less the same capabilities. There are too few skills, the skills aren't captivating, and there is no progression or achievement in unlocking them. You're also stuck with exactly the same options practically forever unless there are future additions.
    There should be job advancements and class specific quests like in the old MS1 so you'd feel a bond with your class. And skills that take effort to unlock.

    In the original MapleStory, every class had an unique feel to their playstyle and had iconic skills that would easily distinguish them from everyone else. In this game, every class starts with a solo skill, a mobbing skill, a dash skill and some insignificant passive and all combat revolves around spamming something and dodging something else until you win. Ordinary monsters and even bosses are so weak and insignificant that you barely have to do anything to kill them and a lot of people are just rushing through them alone, including Elite and World bosses. Even raid dungeons can be performed solo. That this is even possible says a lot about how weak the bosses in general are. At least you did buff the health of some monsters which is slightly better than nothing, but that just makes some content feel like a time waster instead because the boss has a million HP but does zero damage.

    As I mentioned previously, combat is bland. All classes feel roughly the same because their skills are all trying to be flashy in the same manner. There's no satisfaction in combat because enemies are too easy and require no strategy, your skills generally look the same as everyone else's in the heat of battle, and it feels like it doesn't really matter if you are there or not.

    Finally, the controls are pretty sluggish considering I'm playing on a high-end desktop which is clearly overspecced for the game and running it at a reasonable screen resolution. Even during solo play a lot of times skills would be unresponsive resulting in walking towards the boss instead of shooting, firing in the wrong direction, or the skill cancelling and disappearing into thin air while going on cooldown. During the GM events everyone dropped to less than 10 FPS which is absolutely unacceptable considering the amount of things rendered compared to other games. And that was with a relatively small CBT population...
  • BruiseBruise
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 910
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    It's hard for me to say since I played on a laptop with a sort of unfriendly keyboard (hard to be nimble with it).
  • TytaineTytaine
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,380
    Posts: 31
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    It seemed like my aiming was not always consistent with keyboard controls. If I jumped and tried to change my direction before I landed I would not always change to that direction. Perhaps I have not completely understood the mechanics, but it seems like it was behaving strange sometimes.

    If I hold down a button that uses the Arrow Stream skill from Archer it will stop attacking after a small period of time. I have to press the button again to continue attacking. I was unable to use other skills/items while using the macro system.
  • ShadeoShadeo
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 410
    Posts: 14
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    The combat system is okay. It is nothing revolutionary but it is action combat which is very nice and fun! Would be nice if we could dash through mobs/bosses/players with our evading skills. I really hate that u can get circled or stuck in mobs and waste your dodge and die. (And jumping doesnt always help)

    Maybe toning down the mobs def or hp (whatever makes them WAY too tanky). It is nice that mobs aren't one-shots but fighting a mob for 30 sec isn't fun either.
    Would be nice to see debuffs on normal mobs too, not only bosses (for example poison of thief)
    In the skill descriptions skills have meter numbers on them but could you maybe write them in tiles? Would be much easier to figure out!
    And some descriptions are missing for example thiefs "empowerd" skills in the cunning state
  • MillnMilln
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,110
    Posts: 45
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    Shadeo wrote: »
    Would be nice if we could dash through mobs/bosses/players with our evading skills. I really hate that u can get circled or stuck in mobs and waste your dodge

    Depends on the class, bud. Some classes cannot move through enemies with their movement skill, such as Assassin. Some classes can, such as Berserker, And other move the enemy themselves with it, such as Knight.
  • namconamco
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 625
    Posts: 6
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    devs need to unlock changing controls especially for controllers. i hate having to hit combo keys to use a skill when using a controller. l2 to menu then either up/dwn/lft/rght or a/b/x/y. why cant i just bind my controller how i want? i would rather have 4 skills bound l1/l2/r1/r2 with no combo key press then d-pad arrows for healing. unlock the damn menu so we can set the controller up how we want.....
  • StoneforgeMysticStoneforgeMystic
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 510
    Posts: 3
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    I played as an assassin; overall the class combat felt pretty decent, maybe a tad bit longer ranged or a little longer dash would be nice, I sometimes felt I had to dash attack to get not one shot by some of the bosses
  • ZexMaxwellZexMaxwell
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,080
    Posts: 13
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    PLEASE let me turn off skill effects and name plates. I constantly loose my mouse and boss creatures during intense combat.
  • MilkTeéMilkTeé
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,010
    Posts: 28
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    This post will mostly focus on the classes Wizard and Thief
    The combat feels really fluid and quick a lot of ways to dodge incoming attacks, space out etc.
    I only got 2 minor things to complain about the combat 1 which isn't really a combat issue rather the character voice repeating the lines over and over again, it would be great if the voicelines would only occur every 3-5th time or something when you spam a skill
    and 2ndly it would be the hits desynced with the visuals (especially boss monsters) usually their attacks will register as a hit even though you move out of the way before the hit visually connects with your character if you dodge it in the very last split second. This probably isn't something that will be easily fixed or if even but I just wanted to point out there, it probably also isn't what makes or breaks the combat in this game since you can just dodge the attacks prematurely and avoid the incoming damage this way.
  • AnbaAnba
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 300
    Post: 1
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    So, I played a lot of assassin during the beta, and I couldn't help but notice when using certain ranged attacks I could be looking at the monster I wanted to kill, but my ninja stars would sail right past them sometimes. I don't have a screenshot, but here is a (crudely) drawn example of what would happen.[img]file:///C:/Users/Amber/Pictures/Untitled3.png[/img] (Hopefully its displaying the image.) Sometimes the stars would hit the target even with it being one block off, other times it doesn't hit. Anyone else experiencing this with ranged projectiles? This was kinda annoying with an attack that was costly on spirit and having it not hit....
  • Bdogez1717Bdogez1717
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 510
    Posts: 11
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    I think air combat would be fun eventually! or maybe attack mounts!
  • Always_HidAlways_Hid
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 9,900
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    Not quite sure if this is the appropriate thread to leave this suggestion/feedback in but since it is combat related i figured this would be the best fit.

    i think there should be target dummies spread throughout the world, maybe a few in every major city? sorry if there was some and i just somehow missed them. playing around a bit with the talent trees was fun as i was curious to see dps levels from one build to another. but other than against actual mobs, there's no way to test a steady dps (for both single or milti target). i wish there was a way to test this and i think training dummies in cities would be the best way to do so.
  • DanDKDanDK
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 31,640
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    Always_Hid wrote: »
    i think there should be target dummies spread throughout the world, maybe a few in every major city? sorry if there was some and i just somehow missed them. playing around a bit with the talent trees was fun as i was curious to see dps levels from one build to another.

    Funny thing is there are actually some in the guild hall but they show no numbers and lose no health so they are useless for measuring DPS. It'd be nice to have actual ones standing around. :p
  • DDZlairDDZlair
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 300
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    for a thief the combat was hold down 1 button till you run out of energy then do the normal skill to regain it back. i do like how unlike ms 1 where you will eventually max out all the skills, ms 2 separates the skills into different styles.
  • Always_HidAlways_Hid
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 9,900
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    edited 7:18AM June 4, 2018
    DanDK wrote: »
    Always_Hid wrote: »
    i think there should be target dummies spread throughout the world, maybe a few in every major city? sorry if there was some and i just somehow missed them. playing around a bit with the talent trees was fun as i was curious to see dps levels from one build to another.

    Funny thing is there are actually some in the guild hall but they show no numbers and lose no health so they are useless for measuring DPS. It'd be nice to have actual ones standing around. :p

    oh what lol, then what's the point of them? i didn't actually check the guild hall so i hadn't seen them there. they should definitely 1, make them useable (duh, lol) and 2, move them to an open part of a main city because if they're in the guild hall people not in guilds won't be able to use them.
    DanDK
  • TheftTheft
    Maplestory 2 Rep: 1,070
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    edited 6:29PM June 15, 2018
    So I wrote the majority of this in my feedback survey, but I figured I'd say it again here.

    I played Thief, and since I wasn't able to play the entire beta window due to work, I only got to about level 40 or so. But, my experience was that it was definitely possible to get good at Thief until the point that you could dodge the majority of skills, even when against a group of mobs. It might affect your dps, but you could usually dodge most things. The problem is that there were a number of enemies that had AOE special moves (such as snails) that worked in a circle around them. Thieves movement kit relied pretty heavily on their dash (Mind Stealer), which for any directional damage worked great, as long as you activated it quickly enough. But for omni-directional stuff, if you didn't want to take damage, your only real option was to stay away for the duration of their skill. Toss a poison vial or something. That usually meant you want to use the back dash (Quick Step), but I found it pretty underwhelming. I felt that it responded slowly first of all, it might have been the skill animation or something, but compared to Mind Stealer it felt significantly slower. And on top of that it didn't move nearly as far as Mind Stealer, such that if you're right up on the enemy you might not be able to avoid the damage anyways. Which, I guess considering you can use it three times makes sense, but in a combat setting it made it feel pretty useless.

    In the end there were a lot of situations, especially with a mob of smaller enemies where the best you could do without entirely sacrificing your dps was to pick and choose what damage you would take. Which is fine, except Thieves don't have any way to heal at all, not even slowly over time. It meant you were entirely reliant on items for healing, which if you were good enough, you could space your damage such that the potion cooldown wasn't an issue. But then on top of that, Meso Guard is expensive, why is it so pricey? Thief is basically, "Don't want to die? Pay us to live!" I mean thematically that makes sense, but in practice it felt really restricting that you didn't have ways to consistently mitigate damage or to heal that didn't cost you.

    So you can use the Cunning to get rid of the cost of Meso Guard, but here's the thing, you need that buff for your poison combo, twice in fact if you want to boost the damage of Surprise Attack. Currently the combo (as far as I interpreted it) is something like: Poison Vial + Double Slash until you get Cunning + Poison Edge + Cunning Tactics + Surprise Attack. Throw in Mind Stealer + Quick Step for all your 'staying alive' needs. The point is you need Cunning way more often than you get it, unless you spend a lot of time Double Slashing, which usually means soaking up more damage.

    So that comes to my main points, kind of. The first is, Cunning is way too reliant on Double Slash. Other than Cunning Tactics, Double Slash is the only other skill that that gives you cunning, and it's entirely RNG. I understand it's cool to have options to empower lots of different skills, but it doesn't matter if you spend almost all your time using Double Slash, and then have to use Cunning on only a few skills in order to actually do enough damage. I did play around with empowering other skills, especially Blade Dance and Vicious Cuts, but they still felt significantly underwhelming compared to a fully empowered Surprise Attack, which could usually almost one-shot three mobs, if you manage to land it on that many. So point one, Thieves need more variety (and/or more stability) in how they get Cunning. The second point is, we shouldn't have to pick the lesser of two evils when it comes to taking damage if we're entirely reliant on external healing/expensive defense. Retaliation almost seems good, but I wish it was an active, so I could choose what I dodge. If you're forced to take damage to just get your dps in normally, there should be more ways to either mitigate that (I suggested possibly a passive benefit to being behind enemies) or some healing in some shape or form. Especially considering your limited range and the amount of AOE damage in the game. And last point, I feel like Quick Step should feel more dodgy. For a skill called Quick Step, I definitely didn't feel quick using it.

    Ignoring the fact that I'm complaining a lot, I actually had a lot of fun playing Thief. Mind Stealer feels GREAT, it's punchy and quick, and you can dodge a ton of stuff, which really makes me feel like I'm quick on my feet. Pulling off the poison combo quickly and efficiently, especially against bosses, feels really good. And it packs quite a punch. A lot of the skills FEEL good, even if sometimes I didn't feel like the damage reflected that. I'd throw in Blade Dance occasionally simply because it felt really good to activate (and usually I didn't have spirit issues since I was Double Stabbing most of the time). Somersault Kick and Vicious Cuts I didn't like using all that much, since compared to a lot of the kit they felt slow. And somebody else mentioned this, but Somersault Kick was especially easy to accidentally cancel since it moved slower than the rest of the kit. But yeah, Thief is fun, just lacks some of the flexibility I think it's kit deserves.
    2D
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