Actually low tier or just high ceiling?

TassyTassy
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in Thief
I've heard some people mention that the thief is one of the worst classes. Is it? If the player is skilled, can they be just as effective as an equally skilled berserker? Will they be just as valuable to a team? I genuinely have no idea what class I'm going to end up choosing on release, but, I must say, the thief does look fun to play.. It's just, I don't want parties to reject me and go for a berserker instead or something.. I would also like to know this information because, due to the class having a high ceiling, I want to know that the effort I put into it won't go in vain. >:
  1. Is the thief a low tier class, or is it a strong class with a high skill ceiling?146 votes
    1. Unfortunately, it's a low tier class. More value will come out of putting that effort elsewhere.
       30% (44 votes)
    2. The thief is actually a pretty valuable class for any team to have, it just takes a lot of work.
       70% (102 votes)

Comments

  • AugustLilyAugustLily
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    From what I know, thieves have the potential for one of the highest DPS, but often times held back by player skill, or unfortunately, lag.
    TassyCaesarVNilrem
  • PuyopopPuyopop
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    From what I’ve read it’s mostly player skill and abusing the use if poisons.
  • DarkalDarkal
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    All I can say is that you should just play the class you like the most. If thief is the class that fits your play style, you will probably perform better than someone who chose a class just to fill the 'meta'.

  • sidhosidho
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    There are characters in many video games where the character is bad solely because of it's learning curve. Like in league there are characters such as azir or riven, who have a seemingly limitless potential, but are virtually useless in the wrong hands. I think thief will be like that
    Tassy
  • 03Top03Top
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    thief is a class that the tier is completely up to the player. your playstyle and your abilities/knowledge of the class will determine wether you’ll be a viable member or not.

    in the end, the thief’s kit is so much fun to play if you yourself dedicate and put your time into it. if anything, very rewarding once you get the hang of the class ^^
    TassyDatahound
  • nebayotnebayot
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    a few months after release everyone will be begging for thief buffs
  • TassyTassy
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    That is quite possible (I mean, we really don't know yet either way), and it's a fear of mine for the thief's situation to become that dire. I'm actually used to playing low-tier characters (Armored Samus in Smash for example), and sometimes, patch after patch, they never get updated. It's quite frustrating. I don't choose low tier characters on purpose, but sometimes they're either just really fun or are just genuinely interesting characters.

    A lot of people don't think tiers exist, or don't think that tier lists should be valued at all, but they're actually quite important when it comes to analyzing the correct balances that need to be made. I'm hoping that thieves aren't too bad, and that it only seemed like a poor class due to lag in the Korean servers.

    Best of luck to the thief class; and if buffs ever are needed, I'll be there in support, requesting for some balance changes
  • iwasJaseiwasJase
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    Not sure where you got that information but I can assure you that Thief is anything but low tier. Unlike most classes Thief requires strict input with it's combos and good cooldown management for you to be effective in both high level raids as well as pvp. That said, Thief, if handled properly are consistently top 3 in DPS in lvl 50 10-man raids and is constantly fight for top pvp ranks along side Strikers (which we won't have on launch, rip) in KMS2.
    Tassylolicomplex
  • NightThiefNightThief
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    Yup, i'm playing this clas regardless, my Ping is 7 so it isn't too much of an issue and i love high skill ceilings.
  • FerrionFerrion
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    So far I'm only level ~25, just beat the minotaur boss.
    I feel fine fighting bosses so far. They hurt like hell when they do manage to hit me but potions are fine at their job for that. Damage is solid and not too difficult to maintain 5 stacks and vial.
    Clearing out regular mobs though? Fairly fine with melee mobs, but ranged mobs are a nightmare. They won't group up to make poison application fine, and in turn they're also harder to not get hit by.
    TassyTraitre
  • TraitreTraitre
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    edited 10:19AM May 14, 2018
    You say it's about player skill.
    You say theorically you have the best DPS in the game.

    The fact is, other classes can perform as good as thief with no effort, or less.
    As myself a thief, i really tried every single build etc... i land my combos pretty good, but... I'm way too squishy for a melee dps.

    I put all my SP to HP, and if i do a SINGLE mistake on a boss, i'm 30% HP.
    Moreover, to DPS and proc cunning, i have to spam double dash, which is a really short ranged skill, so i have to take risks or damages. Cunning tactics has a 14sc cooldown(it's pretty long), so i can't rely on it only.

    So, in conclusion, i have to take HIGH RISK to proc cunning and my DPS is based on chance (with double dash maxed you have ~15% chance to proc cunning).

    So yeah, the DPS isn't consistent, some boss pattern are really hard to dodge, and the risk/reward ratio isn't really good.
    On the paper, if you are perfect player it's good, but in practice, nobody is perfect, and that's why some classes are better than other, because they are way easier to play for the same result, because their risk/dps ratio is way better.

    I think a good solution would be to increase their resistance/hp/avoibility a little, or a regen hp skill.

    I'm a MS1 player until 2004, i played only thief, and the bandit in MS2 really look like the MS1 one, but even worse. Because on MS1, you could have theorically the best DPS in the game, but only if you were rich (mesos explosion skill), while other classes could do little less dps, but didn't have to burn their mesos.

    To finish, please do not base your opinion on KMS bandit, because they are not same.
    TassynebayotKirinaXiLanGuardianRSbolder_taste
  • ZyconZycon
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    Played kms2 and cms2 and there is a reason why thieves are the least played class in both regions. Quit now and don't waste your time if you expect some god tier class in the end. This isn't it.
    bolder_taste
  • MareSEphemeralMareSEphemeral
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    edited 12:20AM May 19, 2018
    I went in blindly with thief only, I didn't read any guides or explanations on classes or skill builds, and I didn't have any prior experience with MS2, I just went in and experimented on my own, and I have to say that this class is just bad.

    It's not an issue of having a high skill ceiling, it's more of an issue of the game being very restricting of skill based play. The way the game and a lot of bosses are designed, the game is tilted towards either being able to tank hits well, or simply being out of range.

    If you've played Monster Hunter, it basically feels like trying to playing MH but without any i-frames so you don't have the option of evasion, the bosses instantly re-adjust aim at the very moment attacks come out so good maneuvering and being able to recognize patterns won't help much, as well as hitboxes that are worse than Freedom Unite. That's basically what playing thief in MS2 feels like.

    Point is, if you think thief is a good class because you're looking for a class that heavily rewards high skill based play, you are literally playing the wrong game. There is no high skill ceiling, you just have a lower skill floor.

    But thief is a good class in regards to it being more fun than some others because the character's playstyles require you to move around more and forces you to pay more attention to your surroundings, so it's for people that enjoy a challenge rather than shutting off the brain and holding down spin (looking at you, berserker). But being able to control your character very well won't necessarily put you above the people playing other classes, it's really more like you have to do a lot of extra work to try and get on equal footing with those other classes, and past that you're either an execution god or a computer AI.
    TassyTraitreDiiwicabolder_taste
  • ZyconZycon
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    Played kms2 and cms2 and there is a reason why thieves are the least played class in both regions. Quit now and don't waste your time if you expect some god tier class in the end. This isn't it.
    I went in blindly with thief only, I didn't read any guides or explanations on classes or skill builds, and I didn't have any prior experience with MS2, I just went in and experimented on my own, and I have to say that this class is just bad.

    It's not an issue of having a high skill ceiling, it's more of an issue of the game being very restricting of skill based play. The way the game and a lot of bosses are designed, the game is tilted towards either being able to tank hits well, or simply being out of range.

    If you've played Monster Hunter, it basically feels like trying to playing MH but without any i-frames so you don't have the option of evasion, the bosses instantly re-adjust aim at the very moment attacks come out so good maneuvering and being able to recognize patterns won't help much, as well as hitboxes that are worse than Freedom Unite. That's basically what playing thief in MS2 feels like.

    Point is, if you think thief is a good class because you're looking for a class that heavily rewards high skill based play, you are literally playing the wrong game. There is no high skill ceiling, you just have a lower skill floor.

    But thief is a good class in regards to it being more fun than some others because the character's playstyles require you to move around more and forces you to pay more attention to your surroundings, so it's for people that enjoy a challenge rather than shutting off the brain and holding down spin (looking at you, berserker). But being able to control your character very well won't necessarily put you above the people playing other classes, it's really more like you have to do a lot of extra work to try and get on equal footing with those other classes, and past that you're either an execution god or a computer AI.

    This. When youre at max efficiency (which will never happen and I’ll explain why in a bit) you are equal to other classes. Youre not even equal to high tier classes rather than medium tier. To add to this, thief has the shortest range in game BY FAR. It is impossible to be at max efficiency because there are so many areas where we legitimately cant hit the boss. But that doesnt stop other classes from hitting the boss does it? And i have to add, if you guys think thief is hard now, just wait. Youve scratched the surface. We hit level 50 and dont even have all our skills yet. Wait until youre running max efficiency builds on bosses that are constantly moving out of range, screwing up your rotation. ALL THAT AND WE ARE STILL MID TIER, AND THATS DOING IT PERFECTLY! Youre more likely to see heavy gunners late game than thiefs. They are an awful class and deserves a buff that theyll never get. If you can accept that and still play it, stick with it.

    Also, i tried helping a few thiefs during closed beta and they insisted on their own build that would do a quarter of my damage. I have to say, if you are content on keeping one build through every boss as thief, just dont play the class. It may not seem bad now but when chaos and reverse raids are a thing and time limits exist, YOU are going to be the reason your team doesnt pass. There will be a point where raid groups will kick you because youre a thief, not even giving you a chance (I experienced this on kms2 and cms2). So, honestly think. This class isnt a good class in any manner. It has been and still is the worst class in the game. The only way youll enjoy playing this class is if you can accept this and move forward.
    GuardianRSbolder_taste
  • FerrionFerrion
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    Zycon wrote: »
    Played kms2 and cms2 and there is a reason why thieves are the least played class in both regions. Quit now and don't waste your time if you expect some god tier class in the end. This isn't it.
    I went in blindly with thief only, I didn't read any guides or explanations on classes or skill builds, and I didn't have any prior experience with MS2, I just went in and experimented on my own, and I have to say that this class is just bad.

    It's not an issue of having a high skill ceiling, it's more of an issue of the game being very restricting of skill based play. The way the game and a lot of bosses are designed, the game is tilted towards either being able to tank hits well, or simply being out of range.

    If you've played Monster Hunter, it basically feels like trying to playing MH but without any i-frames so you don't have the option of evasion, the bosses instantly re-adjust aim at the very moment attacks come out so good maneuvering and being able to recognize patterns won't help much, as well as hitboxes that are worse than Freedom Unite. That's basically what playing thief in MS2 feels like.

    Point is, if you think thief is a good class because you're looking for a class that heavily rewards high skill based play, you are literally playing the wrong game. There is no high skill ceiling, you just have a lower skill floor.

    But thief is a good class in regards to it being more fun than some others because the character's playstyles require you to move around more and forces you to pay more attention to your surroundings, so it's for people that enjoy a challenge rather than shutting off the brain and holding down spin (looking at you, berserker). But being able to control your character very well won't necessarily put you above the people playing other classes, it's really more like you have to do a lot of extra work to try and get on equal footing with those other classes, and past that you're either an execution god or a computer AI.

    This. When youre at max efficiency (which will never happen and I’ll explain why in a bit) you are equal to other classes. Youre not even equal to high tier classes rather than medium tier. To add to this, thief has the shortest range in game BY FAR. It is impossible to be at max efficiency because there are so many areas where we legitimately cant hit the boss. But that doesnt stop other classes from hitting the boss does it? And i have to add, if you guys think thief is hard now, just wait. Youve scratched the surface. We hit level 50 and dont even have all our skills yet. Wait until youre running max efficiency builds on bosses that are constantly moving out of range, screwing up your rotation. ALL THAT AND WE ARE STILL MID TIER, AND THATS DOING IT PERFECTLY! Youre more likely to see heavy gunners late game than thiefs. They are an awful class and deserves a buff that theyll never get. If you can accept that and still play it, stick with it.

    Also, i tried helping a few thiefs during closed beta and they insisted on their own build that would do a quarter of my damage. I have to say, if you are content on keeping one build through every boss as thief, just dont play the class. It may not seem bad now but when chaos and reverse raids are a thing and time limits exist, YOU are going to be the reason your team doesnt pass. There will be a point where raid groups will kick you because youre a thief, not even giving you a chance (I experienced this on kms2 and cms2). So, honestly think. This class isnt a good class in any manner. It has been and still is the worst class in the game. The only way youll enjoy playing this class is if you can accept this and move forward.

    What makes you say they'll never give the class buffs/changes?
    I plan on still playing it, despite them sounding very under-powered as I just really like playing it so far, though I do hope they'll get some love form the devs if they truly are in just an awful spot.
  • ZyconZycon
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    Ferrion wrote: »
    What makes you say they'll never give the class buffs/changes?
    I plan on still playing it, despite them sounding very under-powered as I just really like playing it so far, though I do hope they'll get some love form the devs if they truly are in just an awful spot.

    It's just one of those classes. Every game has that class that never gets attention and for ms2, the thief is that class. It's been at the bottom of the barrel for a while and no one expects it to change. In fact, people have purely given up on the class entirely because it simply isn't worth it anymore (both players and devs I mean). You'll understand when you're doing a late game raid and an assassin with half the gear and 1/10th of the effort triples your damage. It's demoralizing and everyone switches in the end.
    TassyhankiepixxAngelBeatGuardianRSbolder_taste
  • drizzteldrizztel
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    I am a Chinese player who played thief. I am not sure what version of the game you are going to play. I probably describe thief. Thief has the highest number of attack segments, multiple segments (even wearing monsters),up to 99% miss boss skills. Compared to other professions, thief can have the highest DPS with the same attribute and high proficiency(IMPORTANT). Disadvantages: melee, low aoe. In general, the conditions for achieving high DPS are relatively harsh: you need equipment support, you need to avoid skills at all times, you need to pay attention to gain CD, copy understanding, and the skill proficiency.Therefore, thief is highly playable, highly mobile, and difficult to get started.